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Michael John Smith

Thoughts Of Jealousy And Envy

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I have been meditating for some time and watching the arising and falling away of my thoughts - as I understand it karmic traces. I have noticed that thoughts of jealously or envy are completely absent. I have heard people say they are common. What does this mean? Is my practice so poor that I cannot detect these kinds of thoughts? I am also unconscious of having these thoughts in my daily life outside of meditation and cannot remember ever encountering them. Is there something wrong? Is there some sign to be read here? Some direction?

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I have been meditating for some time and watching the arising and falling away of my thoughts - as I understand it karmic traces. I have noticed that thoughts of jealously or envy are completely absent. I have heard people say they are common. What does this mean? Is my practice so poor that I cannot detect these kinds of thoughts? I am also unconscious of having these thoughts in my daily life outside of meditation and cannot remember ever encountering them. Is there something wrong? Is there some sign to be read here? Some direction?

Well...I'd say you've either done a good job in the past (lives) purifying or not creating such karma, thus have no such karma to experience or...the causes for such experience just haven't ripenned yet :0022:

It is said the nature, the potential of our minds is all the same, so it might be just the question of karma, if and when it ripens...and when it does, it is the question of practice/habits how you deal with it, if it goes by observed only by yourself or others too...or in the worst case scenario by others only...(I often have people tell me "Why are you so angry?" "ME? I AM NOT ANGRY :taptap: !!!) - BTW: I don't think anything is wrong, its just their karma to see what they see, becasue I am really never angry.... :angel:

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Never? 8/

never :-// would I conscoiusly give you a chance to tell me "You're angry", if I really am angry...I will try to hide it, I will even disturb my own mind, so that I don't have to look at it either.

 

And when I am told "You're angry!" and I know I am not, it makes me laugh inside "You're so wrong - and me, I am right :0022: " The unleashed monkey wins every time.

___________________________________

But back to Michael's question...are we jealous, or not, if jealousy arises but we do not identify with it, just acknowledge it? Do we have karma to experience jealousy or just karma to encounter a situation which is likely to make us jealous? Is jealousy a reaction the moment after some karma has ripened or it is the ripening of karma itself?

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would I conscoiusly give you a chance to tell me "You're angry"

Which then doesn't really means you are never angry ;) but could futher show a certain hypocrisie and pride by not recognising it and hiding it. Quite contrary to the Lobjong :taptap:

 

are we jealous, or not, if jealousy arises but we do not identify with it, just acknowledge it?

I appear to me that when jealousy has already rose in our mind, we can say that we are jealous, yes. To different degree according to how frequent such thought arrise, and with which strength.

Then, when realising it, you apply the antidote or not, try to work on it, or conceal it; which would result in different karmic causes.

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these antidotes can be learned also from here...

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/anger.htm

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/delusion...loneliness.html

until short and specific answer...

and about jealouly from Berzin's

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archi...g_jealousy.html

best regards,

pamo

 

...sorry, i try to enter these pages from here but they don't open...don't know why...but if you type the addresses the pages appear.

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Dear Pamo,

tnx for excellent links, especially Berzin! As if you read my thoughts! :laugh:

 

Berzin, when he deals with Lo.rig, puts "jelausy" among the 20 disturbing emotions (5/20, jelausy, phrag-dog). Jelausy is due to excessive attachment to our own gain or to the respect we receive (I'm just quoting Berzin). So, it is connected to the negative mental factor excessive attachment.

 

I, too, was once convinced that there is no jelausy in myself. After pondering upon that a little bit more thoroughly, I found out that one of my first child memories is linked to jelausy (fear of losing a parent) - and that this "model" of reaction was only reused later on in various forms, projected up to other persons or things. I tried to fight against jelausy with generosity attitude: "let him/her have this/that", "it's excellent for him/her!", "I rejoyce for him/her".

 

I have one question: what about the case when one does not want to admit jelausy to him/herself - because he/she regards this disturbing emotion as very low and in complete opposition to generosity? If jelausy links itself to pretension or concealment of shortcomings, is it possible that it manifests in the form of aversion? I'm not talking here about hatred but just of simple "I don't need this" or "I fly away from this", which is so well illustrated in the famous story about the fox who did not want to eat acid grapes. But to fly away mentally (even physically): isn't it a sign of a certain pain (of jelausy) that manifests through all the layers that the mind designed to block the emotion?

 

What antidotes to use in that case? :dontknow::(

 

All the best.

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Dear Kunzang,

 

tnx for excellent links!
You're welcome. I am happy you find them useful.

 

what about the case when one does not want to admit jelausy to him/herself - because he/she regards this disturbing emotion as very low and in complete opposition to generosity?
Then I guess one may find him or herself quite lonely and cut from life within himself or herself.... as what is written in those links, how can we accept others' pain and afflictive emotions and be therefore compassionate towards others if we are not able to accept who we are at the moment... It also says, we have to always remind ourselves we all have Buddha nature within! I think this is a good ground for being able to accept anything...eventually :laugh: .

 

If jelausy links itself to pretension or concealment of shortcomings, is it possible that it manifests in the form of aversion? I'm not talking here about hatred but just of simple "I don't need this" or "I fly away from this"
I hope others will include themselves in this discussion too, but for myself i can say: oh, yes! :laugh:

 

But to fly away mentally (even physically): isn't it a sign of a certain pain (of jelausy) that manifests through all the layers that the mind designed to block the emotion? What antidotes to use in that case? :dontknow::(
I wish i was wiser myself ;) but to look at it logically, it seems the opposite to what has been lived up until realizing this, could work: facing the pain, observing it, getting familiar with it though not identifying with it and, eventually, realizing its ridiculousness; because, our goal is just the opposite direction. I try to have faith that the seed for big transformation is encapsulated in each of the baby steps towards it. Though perseverance seeks support from our friends sometimes...we need one another.

 

best regards,

pamo

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Which then doesn't really means you are never angry ;) but could futher show a certain hypocrisie and pride by not recognising it and hiding it. Quite contrary to the Lobjong :taptap:

Dear Rinpoche,

I plead guilty to all charges: anger, jealousy, hipocrisy, pride and many more. :blush:

Yet, I plead lazy, but not guilty of not applying Lobjong. :angel:

 

When I am aware that I am angry, to the least what I understand I can do, is not to harm others, thus I withdraw/hide. Wouldn't that be a responsible, rather than a hypocritical act? Having made sure I am not harming others, I then could work on my own mind...I don't see any controversy with Lobjong?

But I do admit bursting out in anger in public would hurt my "practitioner's" pride more than it does when I am the only one to know about it! - So...I am being responsible and attending to my own little interests at the same time - sounds a good deal to me?! And that, indeed, is hypocritical. But this is the state of my mind, which hasn't realised emptiness. My mind is self-centred. In my every act there is a "self" somewhere. Is it possible to do a 100% selfless act for as long as there is SELF? Wouldn't that be an act out of Bodhicitta? Can we act out of Bodhicitta on the grounds of good understanding of it, without our mind yet becoming Bodhicitta?

 

Dear Kunzang, from what I remember, attachment and aversion/rejection are told to be two sides of the same coin; if jelousy is sign of excessive attachment, it does sound logical (excessive) aversion could be the sign of jelousy...And yes, I can think of many cases where my past jelousy has transformed into "I don't need or want this or that anyhow" or "Who cares" attitude...

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Dear both, Pamo and Dani,

thank you for your answers and for sharing your experiences, for courage! I find all this very helpful! From what I see, the analysis on jelausy can lead also towards the analysis on the mental factor which serves as a basis of jelausy/envy: excessive attachment (longing desire, according to Berzin) and the problems and practices connected with its transformation: but to write about this would mean to open a whole new topic which would include meditation on emptiness, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Interesting, if we remain in the jelausy topic, is also the distinction between jelausy and envy and some other emotion I am unable to name. I discussed about this with a friend, so the thoughts that I'm going to write down, are not mine, yet I find them very inspiring.

 

One type of emotion, jelausy proper and well developed, is like Berzin describes it: "Oh, I don't have such a skill, characteristic etc., I remain excluded from the circle of the beings that have it, I am a loser, they are a winner..." and from here onwards, depending on the individual mental continuum, either a hostility against the person develops or the miserliness and closing oneself in the "black hole" develop. In both cases, it is "me", "me" and again "me" that speaks very loudly, alas, also very unproductively. The object of envy doesn't serve as inspiration to become better.

 

 

There is one type of emotion when we see sth. good in others and see that we don't have such a skill, characteristic etc. and wish "If only I as well had a little bit of this." If it spurrs us to practice actively in order to develop such a skill, such thought gave a good result, at least in motivation, if not other. So, the "object" served as an inspiration. In this case, there is no inclusion/exclusion field, no hostility or miserliness; the "me" is present, but not that much strong. In fact, the "me" moves in the direction towards becoming less and less fixed as it makes a motivation to transform itself.

 

A question: does anybody know how this other type of mental factor is named?

 

Another point of view: with disturbing emotion such as jelausy, one could switch to this other "mode". I'm not talking so much about the analysis but more on what can be done "on the spot", when one needs no big philosophies but quick reminders, magic words (if I paraphrase Lama Shenpen Rinpoche) and above all, an alternative reaction mechanism. Could that be a constructive approach towards dealing with such a disturbing emotion? To switch to admiration of what one lacks and then trying to develop the admired characteristic? Are there better constructive approaches?

 

All the best.

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Tonglen? And, following Lama Shenphen Rinpoche's Teachings, why not entering the topic of Emptiness? ... as Rinpoche gave It as most effective/transformational way to do.... since everything and all is of the same nature, and our true nature is Buddha nature? But please, this is in what i trust ....a long way to go to be successfully with my afflictions...but one day surely ;)

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Tonglen? And, following Lama Shenphen Rinpoche's Teachings, why not entering the topic of Emptiness? ... as Rinpoche gave It as most effective/transformational way to do.... since everything and all is of the same nature, and our true nature is Buddha nature? But please, this is in what i trust ....a long way to go to be successfully with my afflictions...but one day surely ;)

 

I agree, dear Pamo! Yet - this is (at least in my practice) depending on the depth of disturbing emotion or negative mental factor. The point is, what to do "on the spot" to cut the mind out of this negative emotion?

 

So, one has to change one mental automatism for another. One has to "trick" ones mind because the mind cannot split in two and cannot be concentrated upon two different objects. (I am copying the advise from Lama Shenpen Rinpoche. :prostate: ) So, it is either pain or something positive, constructive.

 

The picture that comes into my mind is the picture of a mother that sees her child at the verge of crying for nothing, just because it wants some attention when mom is talking to a friend. So she diverts child's attention saying: "Oh, my my, what a beautiful autumn leaves we have there! Could you bring some to mummy?" And in that moment, the child sees the beautiful colours (mom said they were beautiful, so they surely are) and starts observing, running towards beautiful yellow-reddish leaves. And it starts smiling!

 

I was talking about a situation when our mind behaves as a child not wanting to listen to reason while being oversensitive and (from its perception) hurt. How to make unharmony into harmony as effectively as possible?

 

I see it even like that: even if the person may not have positive characteristic, I would invent them in order to block the disturbing emotion, preventing it from becoming harming other (even internally). Thus, one can also open towards another person more easily. I think, this could be felt in the communication with another person, in the sense, that there is the feeling that the problem can be resolved - only some time and patience with others are needed.

 

But, as my friend (with whom still discuss about this topic) says: the method depends on the situation and on the individuum; to one one method is more easy to apply while to another person the other might be more effective...

 

I would like to hear an opinion about such trick(s) that exploit the mind's capability of creating projections. I would like to hear also about the relation between such tricks and tonglen/Emptiness practice...

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I am finding this discussion very rewarding. Rinpoche has also advised on practicing the six perfections, which would include aspiring to realise emptiness. I for one am experiencing certain difficulties with this but I am confident that if I can maintain courage and mindfulness, I shall be able to take one baby step at a time. Realisations, or enlightenment flashes, are not uncommon when meditating on emptiness or suffering but I believe one must really thoroughly comprehend that emptiness is emptiness, form is form but ALSO emptiness is form and form is emptiness. That's the tricky part. That's why we have to inquire after all these little karmic traces, habits or whatever of ours such as jealousy and anger, etc. How do we realise there IS karma in emptiness and emptiness in karma otherwise. Am I making any sense to anyone? I'm not sure I am!

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