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Khyenrab

Partner Relationships

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Tashi Delek dear Lama Shenphen Rinpoche,

 

What would be the most important general Lord Buddha's advice on "partner-relationships": girlfriend-boyfriend, husband-wife, etc...? There is an undoubted gap between two people who care for each other and one is on the Path and the other is not... The "gap" is by no means "unbridgable"!, far from it!, but the attitude for Ethics is undoubtedly strenghtened when taken Refuge etc... Could you please tell us a few words of wisdom on the subject.

 

Thank you :), T. Khyenrab

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What would be the most important general Lord Buddha's advice on "partner-relationships": girlfriend-boyfriend, husband-wife, etc...?
May be to run away from it as quick as possible! ;) After all, this is what the Prince Siddharta did, in order to become Buddha!

Till we remain within attachment, projection, desire, expectations... what do we wish to Realize?

If we wish to be Liberated, let's start by liberating us from the bounds of this existence! Then, we can seeks further to liberate our mind from the misconception and ignorance. How can you dedicate yourself while being attached to one person, a family, a group, a nation, or whatever will keep you within a frame?

 

That is why one of the first practice of a Bodhisattva is to quit all this, to go away from family, friends, area. To break all the chains that would keep us in this materialistic world. If you can do the same work while being still among them i.e. if your mind is strong enough to be a lamb among starving wolves... Fine, do it!

 

I do not mean to abandon the world, but to take the necessary distance from it, to deepen your awareness, to sharpen your wisdom, to dispel your inner demons, to establish Peace! Then, you will come back, with full strength, to help all beings!

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Hello friends :)

 

A few days ago i wrote a poem about this, i will

post it here (if its not the right place for suchs things, plz delete it)

:roll:

Ich dachte ich liebe dich,

weil du immer freundlich bist immer für alle da bist

und weil du mich glücklich machst

 

Ich dachte ich liebe dich

weil ich mit dir immer lachen kann

du mit mir traurig bist

und weil ich dir alles erzählen kann

 

Ich dachte ich liebe dich,

weil du mich verstehst, meine Gedanken teilst

und doch so einzigartig bist

 

weil du mein Herz berührst und mehr darauf aufpasst als alle anderen....

 

...doch jetzt weiæ#159; ich, dass ich mich nur selbst geliebt habe.

 

Wahre Liebe kann nicht zu Hass werden, denn wahre Liebe bedeutet dass man den anderen Menschen bedingungslos liebt. Man darf ihn nicht einsperren, nicht zwingen, nicht beleidigen, misshandeln oder gar für seine Taten verachten. Man darf ihn für alles was er tut lieben und sich freuen wenn er glücklich ist.... auch wenn man selbst am liebsten sterben würde.

in english: (or something alike ;))
I thought i love you,

because u are affable, here for everyone

and you make me happy

 

I thought i love you,

because i can laugh with you,

you are sad with me

and because i can tell you everything

 

I thought i love you,

because you understand me, understand my thoughts,

but anyhow you are so unique,

 

because u touch my heart and guard it like no one else....

.... but now i know that i just loved myself.

 

True love cannot get hate, because true love means that you

love the other person unconditional! Dont jail the Person

you love, dont force it dont insult it, abuse it and dont

condemn it for the things it does. Love the Person for

everything it does, and be happy when your love is happy.....

.....even if you think you want to die

Im sure in german it is better (because i dont knowenough words in english ^^),

but i thing the point comes through ;)

 

hope i could help a bit

i will see you all someday :)

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Dear Gablendet :)

 

I really like your poem. :) It says (pretty much) everything that should be said about love and relationship. I hope you find the strenght and courage to love unconditionally with no expectations from anyone... :)

 

Thank you for the poem,

and have a wonderful day :D

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek!

 

I think that to say »unconditional love« in the same sentence with »partnership«, »relationship«, or »one person«, is a paradox. Unconditional love isn't »love which jumps into a relationship unconditionally«, but a »love which sets no conditions«, so it can't even set the condition which person one will love. Therefore it can't be oriented on one specific person without including all the others, as it must accept everyone in the same loving way. So, unconditional love means that we love our partner as much as we love any other being, including the spider in the corner.

 

I am sorry if I didn't contribute much to the romantic spirit. :wink:

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Touched by your hawk-eye wisdom, but I must in a way disagree. Every single, even tinies thing in this world (universe) is absolutely (undeniably) related to everything else there is. Love for all and everything is realizing this "absolutely neccesary and undeniable" relationship with all there is. Having a "sexual or life" partner might obstruct our realization of that fact, but not "automatically". If all is related, all forms deserve equal affection, but that does not mean that one can't be even more intimate with his/her "partner". Yet, it should be done without (much) attachment - but with loving kindness. Partnerships also help to grow spiritually - the sense of obligation of helping the others - to be of your best skillful service, to protect with courage, to guide with love..., to raise the children with wisdom, that is all beautiful! :D

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For me, it is about the expectations of such a relationship. Mine and everyone else's. To be the partner of one is to somehow put them ahead or prefer them above others. Love songs are full of references to giving everything for this one person. I just can't prefer one being that much. The attachment is just a karmic manifestation and not real in any substantial sense. And, i can't quite believe that happiness is caused by some other person out there. Even one for whom i have great affection and attachment. That would actually seem to make them a greater source of suffering in my eyes. Again, this is all just my opinion and why i decided not to look around for such things. If all beings are my kind mothers, than to pick one seems impossible to me.

Everyone is different and some can balance that out. I just can't. I am trying to get less attached and i find the whole relationship thing just feeds every habit and ma.rig.pa (what is english, Lama?) that i am trying to destroy.

Be well.

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I am trying to get less attached and i find the whole relationship thing just feeds every habit and ma.rig.pa (what is english, Lama?) that i am trying to destroy
Ma.Rig.Pa = Ignorance; the Ignorance of the real nature of phenomena i.e. Emptiness.

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Thanks, Lama.

Of course, having said all that, i still sleep with my stuffed bear Milui Rin. His name is Elvish (actually Sindarin... Tolkien fan) for loving remembrance. Gift from my sister.

My opinion has also been influenced by experience, so don't think that Dharma is the only factor. After three divorces and other disasters, i figured it was best for me, my family and the entire male population to give it a rest. :)

It took a long time for me to figure out i was ok on my own. I still think about it sometimes. But then i have a long talk with married friends and family and remember the down side. This works for me. For others, maybe having a partner is something they are good at or handle better than i did. The trick is the whole attachment side, which i could never get past. Ok, i also made some really bad and stupid choices. In the words of my mom: "go ahead and save the universe, just don't keep marrying them!" :lol: Good thing mom has a sense of humor.

This topic got me thinking about historical examples. Wasn't Marpa married? As i recall he was and his wife interceded with him about Milarepa. Stray thought.

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The relationship between too persons is sometime hard ! isn't it. Let me explain, in a girl-friend, boy-friend relationship, one (the man)of those is more in love than the other one(the girl)!

If the girl's love is less than the man's love 'cause she's more independant, but like him much, but she can't be attached to the men! But if she tells him her detachement, she could hurt him much ! is there a problem !?!

 

We can understand in this affaire that the girl doesn't find any attachement to be in love (as every couple)for someone, but just have an equal sympathy to every one ! How tell this situation to every one ?

 

You maybe don't understand what I mean, my english is ... hum not so good, but if you wanna have more information about my exemple .. it's ok !!

 

Best regards,

Angélique

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But if she tells him her detachement, she could hurt him much ! is there a problem !?!

Hello, Angelique

 

By being detached you can't really hurt anybody. :D Detachment means harmlessness and kindness. By being detached you might influence somebody (your boyfriend) to look at you (and himself) in a different way (the perception changes, it becomes lighter and more sincere). I don't feel that detachment means that you tell somebody in his face that he clings far to tightly to you. Too harsh and rude for my taste. :wink:

By being truly detached he/she might loose interest in you because you don't give him/her any "emotional food" he/she can feed his/her ego with. But that is not rudness - it is quiet non-attachment and letting go with real loving affection. Not the easiest thing! :) From that point on there may be or there may not be a "relationship", but certainly there is a different quality of the mind and heart: you don't get involved because you desire, are afraid, seek "emotional shelter", but - because you really trully love - without asking anything in return (from anyone). That is loving kindness, that is compassion. :)

 

Have a lovely day,

Khyenrab

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Hi !!

 

Thanks a lot for your answer :D

That could help me much !!

 

Bye for now,

Angélique :wink:

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By being detached you can't really hurt anybody. :D Detachment means harmlessness and kindness.
Detachment means to understand the impermanence and illusory nature of phenomena to the point to loose interest in clinging for them. Nothing to do with kindness, as a matter of fact ;)

 

I don't feel that detachment means that you tell somebody in his face that he clings far to tightly to you. Too harsh and rude for my taste. :wink:
Here it might be a question of kindness; but also of wisdom and honesty ;)

 

By being truly detached he/she might loose interest in you because you don't give him/her any "emotional food" he/she can feed his/her ego with.
If it would be so easy! :? But it is not.... Not giving "emotional food" to someone who hasn't decided to give it up might lead to frustration, and eventually separation.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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hum !!! :? lol so

well the detachment we can have face off the common love could be understand by all ? the problem is the attachement of the other people !

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the detachment we can have face off the common love
I'm sorry, I do not understand :? May be rephrase the comment (and you can also add a note in French ;)

 

All the best, Gelong Shenphen

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ahh that's good, sometimes I'm confuse in english especcially when it's hard to explain :P !

 

Ok donc, dans ce que l'on peut appeler sentiment d'amour il y a la compassion et le sentiment amoureux entre deux personne de sexes opposés. jusque là je m'en sort ... en suite comment expliquer à une personne que votre amour n'est animé entre autre que par une sorte de compassion et de foi en elle qui égal le resenti par rapport aux autres être humain ! or cette personne a cru que vos sentiment était de même nature (notion de dualité) Elle pourrait être déçu, vu l'attacement qu'elle apporte à vous !! Dans ce cas comment lui faire comprendre ce qui vous anime hormis le sentiment amoureux !

 

C'est assez complexe ... j'ai moi même assez de mal à expliquer (c'est un peu le basard dans ma boîte à intelligence ! :lol: ) vous voyez ce que je veux dire ? si non, j'essaierais de vous l'écrire plus posément peut être en méssage privé ! (parce que là c'est le forum en Anglais !) promis j'irais sur le français la prochaine fois !

 

Bye for now

 

---> From WEBMASTER: this message has been copied to the Forum in French : go HERE to see if any answer.

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Detachment means to understand the impermanence and illusory nature of phenomena to the point to loose interest in clinging for them. Nothing to do with kindness, as a matter of fact ;)

A little lesson for you, dear Lama :wink: . When detached you cannot be harsh. When detached, you cannot be cruel. You can be straightforward, but unkindness is not the case. But it is not the same, of course, detachment is not kindness, but consequently a detached mind will not be unkind. Right?

 

By being truly detached he/she might loose interest in you because you don't give him/her any "emotional food" he/she can feed his/her ego with.
If it would be so easy! :? But it is not.... Not giving "emotional food" to someone who hasn't decided to give it up might lead to frustration, and eventually separation.

Where is the problem?

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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A little lesson for you, dear Lama :wink: . When detached you cannot be harsh. When detached, you cannot be cruel. You can be straightforward, but unkindness is not the case. But it is not the same, of course, detachment is not kindness, but consequently a detached mind will not be unkind. Right?
You are contradicting yourself in the same thread dear Khyenrab;) It is or it is not kindness? 8O Then, unkindness is not equal to kindness; as absence of anger is not mental quietness, for additional example, if needed 8)

The lesson will wait! :wink:

 

By being truly detached he/she might loose interest in you because you don't give him/her any "emotional food" he/she can feed his/her ego with.
If it would be so easy! :? But it is not.... Not giving "emotional food" to someone who hasn't decided to give it up might lead to frustration, and eventually separation.
Where is the problem?
Who talked about problem? :wink: You are stating that by showing lack of attachement to someone will bring that person to loose interest in you, right? I say it is not the case, most of the time, with someone who is in love with you...

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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You are contradicting yourself in the same thread dear Khyenrab;) It is or it is not kindness? 8O Then, unkindness is not equal to kindness; as absence of anger is not mental quietness

I see no contradiction whatsoever, a blind fool that I am! :D Detachment is NOT kindness but a detached mind will consequently not act in an unkind way in "contacts" with others. What is so very very wrong with kindness?? :D Didn't the Dalai Lama say: "My religion is kindness to others." :) Maybe it would be better to say that mental equipose brings greater (unconditional) kindness to others and that Emptiness-wisdom-detachment is a much higher realization not having much (direct) connection with kindness? Wrong again, hum? :) Oh, no problem, bully me as much as you like, tread on me, kick me, laugh out loud at my dull stupidity, tell the whole wide world that my shoddy little mind is worth horse's a**! :D

 

Who talked about problem? :wink: You are stating that by showing lack of attachement to someone will bring that person to loose interest in you, right? I say it is not the case, most of the time, with someone who is in love with you

I agree, of course. I am not really saying that showing lack of attachment will turn off the other who is crazy about you, but if you are able to kindly tell them that you cannot "give back what is given (offered) to you" they just might let go of without much frustration. This usually doesn't work either :wink: - but the countless passionate members of my widespread fan-club have been pretty broadminded about it. :D 8) :wink::D

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek,

 

I would add two personal observations about kindness:

 

If we want to work on less sweet part of living in this world (repairing effects of social injustices, working with children with behaviour problems, working on our ego) - just kindness is not enough! If we work on the ground of thinking/acting, not just on some cosmetical changes, stronger effort and stronger tools are essential. Besides, no matter how sublime our motivation and the work itself is, we will come across repulsion (of ego or society or both). This work is not about better arguments or good intention, but really about wisdom, realising how shallow our understanding of reality is, how limited we are about benefiting and how much work is still in front of us. 8)

 

I noticed that we are often mixing enthusiasm with kindness. If we find a nice goal, something heroic, like "saving the world" :wink:, then we tend to direct our actions in the course where they will support our goal - manwhile meanwhile forgetting the aspects which would spoil the picture and shake our elevated activity (I'm talking for my experience :lol:) I see a better approach on taking a deeper look at the situation and trying to find its own needs, no matter if I like them or not, no matter of effort, besides every work of this kind always has some "changing the napkins", some dirty work which no one wants to do. It doesn't support our role of a kind person which arose aout of enthusiasm at all, but it is something which demands (at least for me) a quite cold blooded orientation (opposite of sentimentality) in order to do what would be probably more beneficial then present situation.

 

All the best,

Khandro

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My interpretation of kindness would be that it cannot really be shattered. If it can be - it is not really kindness. People are usually kind because they want something from someone. But that is not kindness, that is blackmail. If you can be kind without speculating and "politics" - that is kindness! :)

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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The Geshe at the FPMT center i used to be part of would not perform them, but would bless the couples after they were married. It was explained by another member that marriage creates attachment (therefore suffering and all the rest), which he did not want to be part of creating. Or words to that effect. It is late here and i am tired, but i know that he did not take part in them.

My Tibetan wedding (some time ago and long over) had a couple of monks in attendance. They basically said some prayers after the civil ceremony was done, but did not take part in it. Tibetans don't do the wedding thing the way westerners do. It is a different type of thing. A whole other topic... The cultural differences and contexts can be useful sometimes. Not really important here, i don't think. Did lead to some interesting disagreements, though. Ah, the level of misunderstandings never ceased to amaze me...

The link was interesting. Thanks for providing it. I had no idea such a document existed.

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