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Khyenrab

Meditation on Emptiness

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Hi!

 

I have a question about meditation on emptiness. What are the "requirements" or would it be better to say, that any 'gadget of the mind' is quite useless (from the point when "all is still")?

 

What would be the simple steps to do it?

 

Thanks,

MindOnly

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I have a question about meditation on emptiness. What are the "requirements" or would it be better to say, that any 'gadget of the mind' is quite useless (from the point when "all is still")? What would be the simple steps to do it?
Of course, as first requirement one needs a clear - or several - explanation about Emptiness. Best is extensive oral transmission of a Text by a qualified Teacher; by default, at least from a good book.

Then, I would say that one need to work on Shine meditation (Mental Equipoise); because a disturbed mind cannot Realize Emptiness...

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Of course, as first requirement one needs a clear - or several - explanation about Emptiness.
Could you please explain in a few words this - Emptiness? Or what it isn't? :)

 

Thanks,

MindOnly

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Could you please explain in a few words this - Emptiness? Or what it isn't? :)
In a few words, it is very difficult.

Emptiness is not equal to 'empty'. By seeing an empty glass, you do not see the Emptiness of the glass. The Emptiness of the glass is the understanding that that object doesn't have any self-inherent existence i.e. it exists only because we have created the causes for it to exist, through the mechanism of the law of cause-and-effet, the Karma.

Consequently, I would say that a good understanding of Karma is important.

Does it helps?

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Yes, thank you, it does help.

 

So it has a lot to do with "The Theory of Mind Only" and the "Real state of things", "Impermanency and Egolessness" and "The Law of Cause and Effect"? All-combined it seems! As One! Is that right? I don't think here time is a relevant factor, it must all happen in a flash of light, if it is - it is not the real thing? Is that about right?

 

All-well,

MindOnly

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So it has a lot to do with "The Theory of Mind Only"

Not really. There are Two Truths, two way of existence: conventional and ultimate. Ultimately, phenomena doesn't exist; conventionally, we could say they do. They do because we perceive them; so we can't deny that type of existence.

That is why we do not say "phenomena doesn't exist at all", but: "phenomena doesn't exist inherently". If I'm not mistaken, the Mind-Only school would say that all phenomena exist *only* in the mind, nothing else, even conventionally. We (Madhyamika-Prasangika) emphasize on the Two Truths, to avoid any kind of nihilism and eternalism.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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That is why we do not say "phenomena doesn't exist at all", but: "phenomena doesn't exist inherently". If I'm not mistaken, the Mind-Only school would say that all phenomena exist *only* in the mind, nothing else, even conventionally. We (Madhyamika-Prasangika) emphasize on the Two Truths, to avoid any kind of nihilism and eternalism.

 

Yes, I understand, but I think that's why it is called a 'theory', not to be taken literally? I understand it as "both delusion and Enlightenment originate within the mind..." - not to be understood concerning the 'outer world', but it's important that you pointed it out! Wise this - Madhyamika Path! :) I haven't even heard of Mind Only school to be perfectly honest. :)

 

I ment to describe the 'feeling' of Emptiness - with combining all those aspects of truth which can be grasped with good (perfect) understanding: of The Theory of Mind-Only, Egolessness and Impermanency, The Real State of Things and the Law of Cause and Effect - combined together! Is that about right? Also, can it be said that Emptiness = Truth? And if that is so, is Emptiness, accoring to Manjursi (he talks of Truth):

 

These are the qualities when truth is here:

Acceptance of all form as having equal reality.

Clear vision over long distances.

Love of all things and non-things.

Joy in what is.

 

Is this also the feeling of Emptiness? Or is there a difference? What kind?

 

Then, I would say that one need to work on Shine meditation (Mental Equipoise); because a disturbed mind cannot Realize Emptiness...

 

Could you please briefly explain what would be the basic caracteristics of this kind of meditation?

 

Thank you,

MindOnly

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I have read three times a 7 page lecture on Emptiness and The Diamond Sutra by Geshe Michael Roach in Slovenian magazine "Tibet" and the topic seems absolutely fascinating!

 

I wish you could have some teachings like that on this page or even better - a workshop or lecture that we could come to. I'd be delighted to attend.

 

All the best,

MindOnly

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Not really. There are Two Truths' date=' two way of existence: conventional and ultimate. Ultimately, phenomena doesn't exist; conventionally, we could say they do. They do because we perceive them; so we can't deny that type of existence.

That is why we do not say "phenomena doesn't exist at all", but: "phenomena doesn't exist inherently". If I'm not mistaken, the Mind-Only school would say that all phenomena exist *only* in the mind, nothing else, even conventionally. We (Madhyamika-Prasangika) emphasize on the Two Truths, to avoid any kind of nihilism and eternalism.[/quote']

 

Hi Lama.la,

Everything arises due to causes and conditions / lacks inherent existence. (as you say) No permanence, or as i heard it said once, no permanent, partless phenomena. Everything comes and goes. Suffering arises by not recognizing that and grasping onto something as if it should be there forever, if i remember anything Lama Zopa Rinpoche ever told me correctly. There is a base, something that can be labeled, so phenomena exist on a really subtle level, but not the way that we perceive them. Is any of that right? This topic can get really convoluted for me. I always feel like i am talking in circles. Thank you.

Be well,

Chokyi

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I have read three times a 7 page lecture on Emptiness and The Diamond Sutra by Geshe Michael Roach in Slovenian magazine "Tibet" and the topic seems absolutely fascinating! I wish you could have some teachings like that on this page or even better - a workshop or lecture that we could come to. I'd be delighted to attend.

Sir, yes, sir! :wink: Follow the link

 

Hope this help :)

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Thank you, soldier!

Job well done! 8)

As you were.

Would't it be nice if I asked Lama to have this lecture and he'd say:

 

Sir, yes, sir!

What time, sir?!

Of course, sir!

Coming right up, sir!

:D

 

I'm sorry, perhaps I get a little bit carried away because these things seem so absolutely interesting to me. Practise patience, ok I will, be respectful, ok I will, have faith and trust, ok I will, practice bodhicitta and be ungrasping, ok I will, be humble, decent and attentive, ok I will. Be mindful and get rid of this sense of hurry, ok I will, meditate and take care of your hasty mind, nurture it with kindness, ok I will, too much teaching without practice will only add up to your responsibility and will cause inability to act fruitfully, I know, do your best to search out all the teachings yourself and diligently study them, yes, sir, do not ask too many questions but do your homework with maximum of effort, yes, sir, I will, do not unnecesarally burden the teacher, listen attentively to what he has to say, sir, yes, sir!

 

But sir, am I not allowed any questions?

No, soldier student, do your work, attend to your obligations, and the right answers will come!

 

Sir, yes, sir! :D

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I have given some thought on the subject and now I will try to put them into actual words. Since this is not easy I don't really know where this will lead to. Now, let's see.

 

If everything that happens is just a consequence and at the same time a cause for further action, then one must surely ask oneself where is the root of this action. The answer seems simple - it is myself. I am the root and the tree, the happiness and the sadness, the actor, the director and the play. The whole show of life is "me". The experience, the memory, the thought, the emotion, going for a walk, watching the sunrise... It seems to me, that karma, as we call it, is our activity from moment to moment, having effects, results on the quality of our future activity - it is all a long chain of events. Fundamental question seems to be, how to act now so that the quality of the chain of events hightens. Face what needs to be faced, and do what must be done - all without anger, hate, envy, or any other 'colourful' subjectivity, face it all, the whole world, with compassion, kindness and courage. So, to act now, that is the core of the problem. I am the problem right now. I - the whole conglomerate of memory, emotion, thought, motive and plans. And this 'I' must be seen now - as it is, no justification, no feeling of pride, remorse, anger or hate. It seems to me that when one looks at oneself as one is without feeling any of that - but feels simple joy and passion to be available and to be of some kind of service to others - then one holds the key of destiny in his hands. Realizing the emptiness of himself new action is born, which breeds only fruits of happiness and joy, but at the same time greater and greater responsibilities come his way. But it is a burden which one carries with a new kind of committment and attitude, first with a speculative mind, but later one gives in - it is joy to be helpful, it is joy to be peaceful and kind. There is no more "my, my, my" or "me, me, me", but a new sense of belonging to others and to really listen to them - this in itself works miracles.

Breaking the chain of causes and effects is seeing his or her own emptiness with a heart full of love and a mind eager to be of some practical and useful help. Now the chain must be made of gold and it must be as light as a feather - this alone will lead you to the right place at the right time, and if you then do the right thing, the chain may be made out of diamonds from that point on. That is the ('fast-forwarded') idea.

 

Seeing myself as I am - that alone has an action of its own - and it leads to honesty, sincerity and purity. To be free to see - that must be the first (and the last) step. If I can do that, then my mind will travel lightly and peacefully, eventhough carrying a ton of responsibility.

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Hello,

This is not a question based reply, I will just put a few words about mediation on Emptiness in an organized form, to help my meditation and maybe somebody else's as well. Comments are more than welcome!

As far as I have figured it out Emptiness is the next 'resolution' of the mind after it has come in terms with the fact that everything changes and that nothing 'came' into being (only) out of its own causes. The materials, the movements, the out- and inside influences, everything there is, is subject to that process, but not (necessarily) in the same way (force, duration, type of imprint, etc..., etc...) Although we can easily think of an example when a certain amount of things are subjected to the same type, range... of influence, let's say in the industry etc. But that is not so relevant. The whole bussiness of meditation on emptiness seems to be gradual renunciation of all psychological hope based on anything that we can touch, feel or think. It is getting to the point where there are no more likes and dislikes, for all there is - is empty (it has nothing of real, lasting substance that we can cling to, nothing!). I cannot 'become better' by 'feeling better', it's the feeling that has to be dissected. The whole mind and our (self-) images and projections have to be dissected, analized until one can gladly say - "up until now it was all in vain, what was I thinking??" Living without any hope, it seems like a challenge but it is really 'reasonable rationality' which comes without any conflict, without an enemy or a friend, the better or the worse. The middle way then is not seen only as the middle (it 'travels' between the opposites), but also as the higher way (it transcends the opposites and can finally discriminate between relative/absolute; conventional/ultimate). The Buddha said: "There is no way to happiness, happiness is the way." The middle (higher) way is that way. Middle way could also mean that we are like water, never clinging to anything in the sphere of the opposites of our dull mind.

"Since all is empty, all my attachments to anything are completely false, illusions of mine! I will seek vigoriously, and when I find something that I don't see as empty, I will dissect it with a razor blade and when completely extinguished by the diligent analysis, and only then, I will let it be - empty as a shell at the bottom of the ocean - and continue with my search. When all I encounter is nothing but empty, I will be on the right track!"

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Hello :D Thank you, Khyenrab, for that explaination. It did wonders for my understanding. I am in the United States and there is no sangha near me, so this web sight is kind of my sangha. I will be moving near to one soon though. :wink: Also, Thank you too, LamaShenphen.

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Meditation is not an escape from the world; it is not an isolating self-enclosing activity; but rather the comprehension of the world and its ways. The world has little to offer apart from food, clothes and shelter, and pleasure with its great sorrows.

Meditation is wandering away from this world; one has to be a total outsider. Then the world has a meaning, and the beauty of the heavens and the earth are constant. Then love is not pleasure. From this all action begins that is not the outcome of tention, contradiction, the search for self-fulfilment or the conceit of power.

 

- Jiddu Krishnamurti; from "The Second Penguin Krishnamurti Reader", page 9

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Meditation is the unfolding of the new. The new is beyond and above the repetitious past - and meditation is the ending of this repetition. The death that meditation brings about is the immortality of the new. The new is not within the area of thought, and meditation is the silence of thought.

Meditation is not an achievement, nor is it the capture of a vision, nor the excitement of sensation. It is like the river, not to be tamed, swiftly running and overflowing its banks.It is the music without sound; it cannot be domesticated and made use of. It is the silence in which the observer has ceased from the very beginning.

 

- J. Krishnamurti; =II=, page 23

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In the light of silence, all problems are resolved. This light is not born of the ancient movement of thought. It is not born, either, out of self-revealing knowledge. It is not lit by time nor by any action of will. It comes about in meditation. Meditation is not a private affair; it is not a personal search for pleasure; pleasure is always separative and dividing. In meditation the dividing line between you and me disappeares; in it the light of silence destroys the knowledge of the me. The me can be studied indefinetely, for it varies from day to day, but its reach is always limited, however extensive it is thought to be. Silence is freedom, and freedom comes with the finality of complete order.

 

pages 125-126

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Please, this is a forum, not a press release board :wink:

Give the title of the book once, and up to the people to buy it or not...

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From a different book all together! :P

(if you feel that these excerpts are a waste of everybody's time and a waste of the space in the forum, don't hesitate to delete them... :) )

 

The mind is an astonishing instrument; there is no man-made machinery that is so complex, subtle, with such infinite possibilities. We are only aware of the superficial levels of the mind, if we are aware at all, and are satisfied to live and have our being on its outer surface. We accept thinking as the activity of the mind: the thinking of the general who plans wholesome murder, of the cunning politician, of the learned professor, of the carpenter. And is there profound thinking? Is not all thinking a surface activity of the mind? In thought, is the mind deep? Can the mind which is put together, the result of time, of memory, of experience, be aware of something which is not of itself? The mind is always groping, seeking something beyond its own self-enclosing activities, but the center from which it seeks remains ever the same.

 

J.Krishnamurti; Commentaries on living, Second Series; page 240

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Dear Lama Shenphen Rinpoche,

 

What happens to our consciousness when Emptiness is directly experienced?

 

You have mentioned that to differentiate between outer and inner phenomenon is (already) a mistake. So, Emptiness must be a very very deep powerful awareness which dissolves that mistaken perception. A deep deep 'unconditional' inwardness which does not let anything from the outside to disturbe it one bit? Right? How could it be discribed?

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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I think maby Emptieness is rather hard to undestand, maby because there is nothing there to understand? Maby the wisdom comes by the realization that the emptieness is the truth and all else has been super-imposed by the agregates? If you took a child and put him in a box and raised him in that box from birth, It would be hard for the child to understand the concept of "outside". If you walked up when the boy turned 12 or so, and opened the box, It would be frightning Indeed for the boy. This is the only way he will ever be free though. When I meditate on the emptieness I always end up in the "interbeing"(connectedness) of all creation-non creation. Its kinda like this big "hum" with no sound. LOL Am I doing this right? Will

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From THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, Fragment I., by Helena Petrovna BLAVATSKY

 

He who would hear the voice of Nada, "the Soundless Sound", and comprehend it, he has to learn the nature of Dharana.

Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the rajah of the senses, The Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion.

The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real.

Let the Disciple slay the Slayer.

For:

When to himself his form appears unreal, as do on waking all the forms he sees in dreams;

When he has ceased to hear the many, he may discern the ONE - the inner sound which kills the outer.

Then only, not till then, shall he forsake the region of Asat, the false, to come unto the realm of Sat, the true.

Before the Soul can see, the Harmony within must be attained, and fleshly eyes be rendered blind to all illusion.

Before the Soul can hear, the image (man) has to become as deaf to roarings as to whispers, to cries of bellowing elephants as to the silvery buzzing of the golden fire-fly.

Before the Soul can comprehend and may remember, she must unto the Silent Speaker be united just as the form to which the clay is modelled, is first united with the potter's mind.

For then the soul will hear, and will remember.

And then to the inner ear will speak -

THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE

...

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This is tipycal to Blawatsky and her followers: a bunch of non-sence wrapped in a spiritual way, that no one understand clearly therefore think that it is great and the one who says this is surely very advanced! :lol:

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