Jump to content
Dharmaling Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Ani.Chödrön

Samaya

Recommended Posts

Guest Ani.Chödrön

Does acting against the advice of one's Root Guru automatically break the Samaya?

 

Breaking Samaya harms Lama's activities and life - does it mean that a person who broke the Samaya becomes a malevolent friend?

 

What happens if one realizes the mistake, apologizes to the Guru and engages in the purification practices - can the Samaya be re-established after being broken?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest lodreu
Does acting against the advice of one's Root Guru automatically break the Samaya?
The more precise the advise of your Guru, the more negative the consequence.

If you created the Guru disciple relationship knowing what you were doing, you cannot disregard what your Lama is telling you because you do not like it. If you consciously choose to do not respect what he is telling you when everything has been clearly discussed then it is definite.

You cannot take as an excuse that you didn't know if you didn't ask and had the possibility to, you cannot take an as excuse emotional ups and downs also thinking that your feeling toward your Lama is now lower so better to follow somebody else's advise which you 'feel' more connected to what you need.

 

You can also break the samaya by gossiping or speaking negatively about your Guru. When the relationship is created you have to be very careful with it.

 

Breaking Samaya harms Lama's activities and life - does it mean that a person who broke the Samaya becomes a malevolent friend?
The person breaking the samaya most of the time creates troubles for himself, indirectly for others, but mostly for himself. This person is not necesseraly negative toward the Dharma or the Dharma activities of the Guru, it can be some temporary emotional state. The negativity created remains unfortunately, for a more or less longer time according to the level of the mistake and the feeling of the person.

 

What happens if one realizes the mistake, apologizes to the Guru and engages in the purification practices - can the Samaya be re-established after being broken?
Depending on the ability of each person, the way one feel sorry, really sorry or extremely sorry, the level of the offense, the result will be different. Samaya can take several lifetimes to be re-established, if the person gather the conditions to still be in contact with the Dharma in future lifes, to have a human body, etc ...

So difficult to say how long it can take, but the result is definitively obstacles and obstacles and obstacles .... You will have to burn so much negative karma only related to spiritual practice.

So specially regarding practices, disregarding the advise of the Guru is a complete waste.

 

Best regards,

Lodreu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Ani.Chödrön
but the result is definitively obstacles and obstacles and obstacles ....

This made me think about the motivation. I can understand that stabilizing the mind helps when the motivation waves due to laziness and lack of habit, but is this sufficient also in such cases?

 

Most of us are used to feed our motivation with the positive feed back and the positive results, not just with Bodhicitta aspiration. Of course this is mixed with selfishness, so it can be called Dharma materialism; hopefully through practice the mind becomes strong enough to abandon the crutches.

 

What if one lacks such support, if whatever one does, regardless the motivation, regardless the diligence, regardless the perseverance, seems to lead to more obstacles? It is hard to think: "I will suffer more and more now, but i'm so happy because i am accumulating merits that might ripen afterward, if i do not forget to dedicate them."

 

Even more dangerous seems to develop guilt and to establish beliefs such as "now my Buddha Nature is unreachable under the infinite amounts of negative karma" or "how can i aspire for realizations if i’m moving further from them" or similar. How can one maintain the motivation in such case? Motivation is essential for effectiveness of the practice, isn't it?

 

I heard that Lama Zopa Rinpoche told that even if one breaks the Samaya and goes to hell, when one comes out, one can attain Enlightenment much quicker then somebody who had no contact with Dharma before. Is this true?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If one has fully realised the dependent arising in emptiness as well as in form then surely karma can be seen as the ultimate law throughout samsara. This to me means that whilst we are still producing karma if it is positive, at whatever stage we are at, this produces positive effect. Nothing can be "lost" between lifetimes. Of course if we take several, or several hundred lifetimes, away from the Dharma, producing negative karma this karma must too ripen. However once one has followed the path, even in one lifetime, surely sufficient merit must have been accumulated to see us through the bad times of producing negative karma - otherwise what's the point? How can one lose or have taken away higher realisations - surely one comes to a point where only good karma can be produced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is hard to think: "I will suffer more and more now, but i'm so happy because i am accumulating merits that might ripen afterward, if i do not forget to dedicate them."
As hard as it might sound, this might be so anyway. We don't get always immediately the results of what we are doing, because we have a load of negative karmas from the past. So, we need to persever in our practice whatever is happening to us, even if we don't see results yet from the conventional point of view.

 

How can one maintain the motivation in such case? Motivation is essential for effectiveness of the practice, isn't it?

Texts and Teachers are leading us on the Path towards Enlightenment. The motivation is Bodhicitta! As common human beings, of course we might have ups and downs in our motivation. But then, when we are down, we shall remember the benefits of the practice, that all what is created gives results, nothing get 'lost'; and as long as we are walking on the Paths, we will reach Enlightenment, whatever time it will take (based on our skills, karma, guidance, faith).

 

I heard that Lama Zopa Rinpoche told that even if one breaks the Samaya and goes to hell, when one comes out, one can attain Enlightenment much quicker then somebody who had no contact with Dharma before. Is this true?

How can something said by Zopa Rinpoche be not true?! Whatever negative situation you are going through because of past accumulated negative karma, the positive karmas and merits are still waiting to ripen when causes & conditions will be met. Before one goes to hell (or any other rebirth), or after, depending also on how quick we are to purify the negative karma, and accumulate merits & Wisdom...

 

 

How can one lose or have taken away higher realisations - surely one comes to a point where only good karma can be produced.

It depends what you call "higher realisations"... Karma is never lost. Whatever you have created, you will experience, when causes & conditions are met. But what you have only 'understood', can be forgotten.

If you realize Emptiness, you wil lnever fall back. Emptiness is a higher realization. But shine (mental quietness) can be lost from a life to an other, as any conventional wisdoms, or positive mental factors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Ani.Chödrön

Thank you for your answers. This topic has, more then ever before, made me aware about the vastness of samsara, the preciousness of sentient beings for developing our practice, the rarity of the contact with the Three Jewels (or the conditions for Them to exist in a conventional way), and why the Guru is the Ultimate Refuge. :prostate:

 

How can something said by Zopa Rinpoche be not true?!
I didn't doubt it, i just didn't find the quote in the book where i was supposed to find it, so i was checking if He really said so. Thank you for the answer.

 

So, we need to persever in our practice whatever is happening to us, even if we don't see results yet from the conventional point of view.
I find this approach very inspiring (because i don't wish to build with one hand and ruin it with another hand, by holding to crutches that suit ego), despite that it is not always easy. What is the best way to train oneself in abandoning the eight worldly dharmas? How long shall one focus on one tandem or one worldly dharma, before proceeding to another (a couple of months, a couple of minutes, until detachment is achieved...)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I heard that Lama Zopa Rinpoche told that even if one breaks the Samaya and goes to hell, when one comes out, one can attain Enlightenment much quicker then somebody who had no contact with Dharma before. Is this true?

 

The passage in question is more specifically related to tantric practitioners vs. arhats who haven't come in contact with Mahayana:

 

"As it is mentioned in the teachings, if you compare someone who becomes an arhat in this life and someone who takes an initiation but is unable to practice the tantric root vows, the person who is unable to keep pure vows will reach enlightenment first. This person is unable to keep their vows and commits root downfalls and is born in the hell realms. However, before this being who became an arhat even enters the Mahayana path, the person who took the initiation but couldn't protect their vows will already be enlightened."

(Lama Zopa Rinpoche, "Six Session Guru Yoga", p. 21.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more specific question. Does one break samaya if:

 

1. one is slow minded, in the sense that one finds out only after a certain delay (let us say of 7-10 days) what, behind the factual work, was the essence of guru's advice?

 

2. one understands well what guru advised to do/practice, has the intention and the motivation to put it into the practice, yet one procrastinates, in the sense of letting other little things/work come and prevent from putting the advice into practice? In a sense, it is perhaps a question of making priorities... and, above all, being conscious about the real priorities.

 

All the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good morning,

 

I was wondering:

 

- what exactly is Samaya (is there more than one explanation - i.e. Samaya can signify two or more different things);

 

- how is it created (in case it is "Teacher-disciple relationship", by disciple asking and Teacher agreeing or also in another way - e.g. by taking an initiation etc.);

 

- how is it broken (again - in case it is "Teacher-disciple relationship", by disregarding concrete spiritual advise that disciple asked for, or any advise given by the Teacher (asked for or not; to the disciple concretely or a larger crowd including disciple; of spiritual or other nature) or even a hint - is there a clear line between the breach and non-breach)?

 

Thank You ;).

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This made me think about the motivation. I can understand that stabilizing the mind helps when the motivation waves due to laziness and lack of habit, but is this sufficient also in such cases?

 

Most of us are used to feed our motivation with the positive feed back and the positive results, not just with Bodhicitta aspiration. Of course this is mixed with selfishness, so it can be called Dharma materialism; hopefully through practice the mind becomes strong enough to abandon the crutches.

 

If even our good or virtuous actions are a mixture of positive and negative causes (as long as we don't have high realizations) then it is really difficult to step on the Path and even the contact with the Dharma in next lives is not sure, could be swept away by a karmic wind easily, along with good habits, virtues, shine... But here one question comes:

given that even our good actions are a mixture, how to diminish the amount of negative if we may not be even aware of the negativities mixed in/with positive elements? Sometimes we may even see something as good, in the same way that one can be firmly convinced that e.g. eating meat is healthy for various reasons..., without having even a tiny possibility of seeing the faultness of such a view... I am terrified of the (many) situations and possibilities where one might take sth. as good and virtuous, thus not having a slightest chance to apply the four opponing powers. Or one might even notice the negativity but somehow does not react quick enough, thus causing the "snow-ball" effect.

Does this bring us once again up to the necessity of purification and merits collection, in order to be able to see, at least, what are the faults (or a limited number of faults)? It would be nice that also purification and merits collection followed the law of an exponential karma... (or do they follow it?).

So, the motivation should go along with the purification and merits collection. But how or when do we know what measures to take in order that the purification outdoes the quantity of negative karma?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest lodreu
1. one is slow minded, in the sense that one finds out only after a certain delay (let us say of 7-10 days) what, behind the factual work, was the essence of guru's advice?
Slow minded doesn't take out the responsibility except if it is a mental affliction (like mental retard for exemple). Many times one is slow minded because of letting things flow by not making efforts, lack of awareness by laziness in a way.

 

2. one understands well what guru advised to do/practice, has the intention and the motivation to put it into the practice, yet one procrastinates, in the sense of letting other little things/work come and prevent from putting the advice into practice? In a sense, it is perhaps a question of making priorities... and, above all, being conscious about the real priorities.
How could this be an excuse and diminish the consequences :dontknow: You know what you have to do, you know the consequences, but you choose consciously to avoid doing it for ego comfort, self cherishing pleasure. Without judging the person doing that - who never procrastinated cast the first stone - one cannot avoid consequences this way. It would be like taking an empowerment, but not doing the commitments for wrong reasons.

 

- how is it created (in case it is "Teacher-disciple relationship", by disciple asking and Teacher agreeing or also in another way - e.g. by taking an initiation etc.);
There are different levels of Samaya, guru disciple relationship is the strongest probably, because of the involvement of both parties. You usually do not come by accident in front of a Lama asking him to become your Guru, and if it was the case you can still realize it and present the case to this Lama asking to release the relation fro this reason. The more you engage in this relation, asking specific advises related to higher practices, the more it bounds.

You also create a certain Samaya when you take an initiation, so better be careful from whom you receive initiations. After taking an initiation, you should also be careful whom you ask advices to, if you start going to see all Lamas you received initiations from and ask them advices without first being advised to do so by your root Lama, you put yourself in great trouble.

Guru disciple relationship involves something very specific, and it is from your root Lama that you will receive the most powerful blessings.

 

- how is it broken (again - in case it is "Teacher-disciple relationship", by disregarding concrete spiritual advise that disciple asked for, or any advise given by the Teacher (asked for or not; to the disciple concretely or a larger crowd including disciple; of spiritual or other nature) or even a hint - is there a clear line between the breach and non-breach)?
For everything you always have the possibility to go to your Lama and ask privately no? So there is no case where you should let things as you think you understand them, without being sure. And if you cannot access your Lama, because he is unreachable, too high, too far, etc .... Then it might be good to think creating a relationship with a Lama closer to you. Otherwise the relation has no meaning anymore. Everybody could consider His Holiness the Dalai Lama as his/her Lama, but if not being able to meet him except 20 minutes once a year might need another Lama for spiritual guidance.

The clearer the question, the clearer the answer. So if you ask for a spiritual advise, you make it clear and you choose not to respect it, then what value do you really put in this relationship? There are bigger and smaller breaches in it, but none should be taken lightly for sure.

 

So, the motivation should go along with the purification and merits collection. But how or when do we know what measures to take in order that the purification outdoes the quantity of negative karma?
Never stop purification practices might be a good measure to outdo anything :-) As I've read Atisha was prostrating even at the end of His life as purification practices. So maybe we should take as a measure that we do what we can, Vajrassattva everyday for sure and other practices as advised by our Lama when possible, with the less procrastination. Then it might be more productive to think about how to make the practice progress than to think about the results which are anyway consequences from the way we make the practice. And for that we definitively need the guidance of a Lama. For any result to ripen, we anyway need a proper guru/disciple relationship.

 

 

Best regards,

Lodreu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi I am an American American student who abandoned his guru and broke his samaya.... very stupidly I might add. I had a difficult time with Vajrayana practices and did not get proper advice and guidance at a few critical points. I never wanted to break samaya, but it was inevitable that it would happen regarding the relationship that I had with my guru. I have felt the life-force cut off and all attainments and realisations dissapear... What can I expect in a future life/lives?? Is there anyway to avoid the lower realms, say, by having instructions read at the time of death? I read something that even if one is read the Tibetan book of the Dead at the time of death even if one has degenerated samaya that one can be liberated or at least escape the 3 lower realms... is this true? I have read quite a bit of scary stuff regarding the fate of a person like myself... but have also come in contact with some more positive reading... Could anyone reply to this please?

 

-Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi I am an American American student who abandoned his guru and broke his samaya....

Yes, breaking Samayas is a serious negative karma. Yet, it doesn't erase all previous positive karmas accumulated, nor all those you will accumulate before your death.

And, of course, it all depends also the circumstances.

 

Don't give up the Path because of that. Search for a new guidance, maintain your practices, etc...

 

All the best

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...