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kunzang

organ donation: bodhicitta and dying

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I have a question. To donate your organs: with that one can help a lot to other sentient beings even when he/she is already dead. So, it is an act of compassion, no dounbt about that.

 

To donate the organs, the whole thing should be performed very quickly (before the organs loose their vitality). That means basically when brain death is proclaimed by the phisician (a doctor), the vital organs are to be taken out of the body.

 

Yet: it is said that the process of dying lasts from cca 20 minutes (the time in which one would eat a lunch) and that the dead should be left in peace, in harmonious atmosphere for three days in order not to cause negativities in the mind (of an already deceased).

 

How then Buddhism looks at organ donation? Is it still better to donate your organs - and risk some negativities that may arise during the process of having the organs cut out?

 

 

All the very best,

 

Kunzang

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Tashi Delek,

 

People who decide to give their organs in order to save other human beings, do it selflessly! They do it out of compassion for a human being who could be saved thanks to their donation. Because that's what it is, right? A donation. It is a beautiful gesture, a gift of life... We can only be thankful to those who have agreed to give their organs, so that others could go on living!

 

No matter what happens to "me", as long as giving away my organs will allow another human being to survive, should I even hesitate one second? If I do, it will be because I am concerned, scared, about what may happen to "me" if they cut me up before this consciousness leaves this body. But, we shouldn't think about us in this situation. As true Dharma practicioners, we should be ready to sacrifice ourselves for others. Right?

 

Thank you for this question! You have reminded me one important thing, one that I hadn't previously thought about: I have to get my "organ donors" card as soon as possible! {|:)

 

Thank you :)

Frederic

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Knowing that my consciousness might still be present in my body after the bodily functions stop, I wouldn't be too happy if some doctor started cutting my heart out, for the benefit of one heart patient...

What seems much more important to me is leading a pure life of ethics and Bodhicitta for the benefit of all beings, dying peacefully, getting a nice new body and continue helping others.

If the cosciousness is disturbed during the death process, everything can happen. I read (something like) that many times people that are killed have strong negative emotions towards the killer, and can easiliy end up in the preta realms.

So, as long as we are attached to our body... I myself would not donate organs. Unless agreed that a qualified Lama will be present, saying "Go" to the doctors... ;)

 

Best regards

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

I believe that this should remain a personal choice. Of course care for the others is beneficial and of course we have to take care of our dying process as we do to our life.

 

Two things are decisive for our future rebirth: the life that we have been living and the state of mind in the moment of death. It is indeed risky to disturb a consciousness in the process of dying – it can change the course of its future life, by triggering some disturbing thoughts/feelings.

Besides, we never know who is a Bodhisattva. And which state we will be able to reach through our practice. Some beings are able to meditate in the state of clear light and thus achieve Enlightenment or other Realisations. o:) It is for sure not very beneficial to interrupt this process.

 

On the other hand, it is not so common to keep a peaceful mind at the time of death. We are too attached to our comforts, to the eight worldly dharmas, at least if I look at myself. :roll:

Allopathic medicine can follow dissolution only to the point of clinical death, while we know that there are four phases more, before a being actually leaves the body. It is said that dying usually takes about 20-25 minutes (from mirage to leaving clear light). There are some signs that a consciousness has left the body, like a drop of blood coming from nose… If the medical intervention is made after this, it can be very beneficial. ;-F

 

So it all depends on our aspirations, on the time and energy that we devote to our practice, on the various circumstances of our life and death…

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek.

 

From the practical point of the view I cannot imagine that after death my body would not be disturbed for three days, specially if dying in the West. If dying in the hospital, usually one is left about two hours on the ward to declare death and then moved to the other places, undressed, washed, dressed again and then brought to the morgue. In the case of not clear cause of the death one would go also to the patology. To donate some organs, it would be just one of the many moves of the body. I found out the most important the state of the mind in the time of dying and if the mind would find itself in the panic, fear or other state of one of the disturbing emotions, even not disturbing the body won`t be at much help, I guess. Of course, if donate organs or not should be a personal decision. If one in life experinced some disease which made one to renounce to some part of the body already it makes it clear on the one side how everything which is born, dies and that is just ok and on the other side how by donating an organ would lessen the pain and sorrow of someone, who is left without that organ due to disease or acciedent, not to talk about saving the others life...

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Tashi Delek,

It is for sure not very beneficial to interrupt this process.

It is not beneficial at all...

 

On the other hand, it is not so common to keep a peaceful mind at the time of death.

You mean "on the same hand?" ;)

 

If the medical intervention is made after this, it can be very beneficial.

Who will make sure it will be done after?

 

Best regards

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

You mean "on the same hand?" ;)
no i meant "on the other hand", i do believe that both options can be beneficial, but this is very sensitive topic.

 

We should never abandon effort and hope for the Highest Goal. But not all of us have appropriate objective or subjective conditions to highly develop our practice in this life and consequently not many beings meditate in the state of Clear Light. Maybe in next one or in seven lives. So with the highest Mahayana motivation in oneà¢-â„¢s mind, and not reducing oneà¢-â„¢s efforts supportive to Enlightenment, one can still decide to be a donor. I believe that saving life as a final act can really be a very beneficial "travel ration". If it doesnà¢-â„¢t disturb the mind. So, it all depends on the person and the circumstances.

 

I would warn here that we might have doubts about our potentials. But such doubts might not be grounded: if Buddhas say that we have Buddha Nature, then it is surely not so foreign to us. So, doubts in ourselves are not a proper ground for such decision.

 

This is why i say it's tricky. But fortunately a Lama can help, if one has a dilemma.

 

Who will make sure it will be done after? ;)
Exactly, this is the risk.

 

From the practical point of the view I cannot imagine that after death my body would not be disturbed for three days, specially if dying in the West.
For three days or until signs of death appear.

 

I guess it depends also on the family, if one is able to dye at home.

 

Does maybe anyone know how much is Slovene legislation kind to one's religious needs in this context?

 

All the best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek,

On the other hand, it is not so common to keep a peaceful mind at the time of death. We are too attached to our comforts, to the eight worldly dharmas, at least if I look at myself.
no i meant "on the other hand", i do believe that both options can be beneficial, but this is very sensitive topic.

So, you are saying that eventhough it is not common for dying people to have a peaceful mind, it can still be beneficial to open their chest during the process of death?

 

Best regards

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I know you didn't say that, but unless it is certain when/if the consciousness has already left the body, I can't see how donating vital organs can be good for the dying person...

 

Best regards

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Yes, because most people have unstable mind, and consequently not much chance to meditate in the subtlest state of mind, their consciousness leave the body quite quickly. In this case (after the consciousless has left) it is, i believe, very beneficial to donate an organ and save another person's life.

 

I hope i am clear now.

 

With best wishes,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek,

 

It is a fact that we are practicing Buddhists and that it is quite possible that we might develop a more stable mind and a more loving heart in the next 10-20-30 years.

Wouldn't it be a great pity to disturb a relatively peaceful death process which will ensure us a good next re-birth? :)

 

Best regards

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Hello :)

 

Rinpoche was saying to Wangdu on the French forum that this could hinder us in realising more subtle states of mind at the time of death, and therefore that he was personally not an organ donor at the time of death. He was saying that we could "end up" profoundly more useful to many more sentient beings by realizing emptiness for example at the time of death, rather than not realizing it but allowing another human to survive. Yet, nothing prevents us from giving some of us during this life! :D

 

I agree with him, and with you Khyenrab.

 

Yet, because I don't spend half as much time as I should meditating, right now my body will be more useful as an "organ storage" for anybody who needs it, rather than as a post-death meditative support.

 

When I gain more strenght and confidence in my practice, and that I feel that it will be indeed feasible to reach subtler states of mind at the time of death, I will undoubtedly cancel the card, which I should be receiving in the next few days... :wink:

 

Thank you.

Best regards,

Frederic

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When you reach Shine, Frederic, don't blissfully forget about the card! :))

 

And, how will you know, if and when your mind is ripe to reach a more subte state of mind? Many times we put ourselves down and have dire disbelief in what we can do/reach, without any good reason, no...? :(

 

Best regards

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Tashi Delek.

 

Regarding the process of dying I can not understand the link between disturbing the dead body and reaching the Enlightenment. The moment when consciousness find itself in the most subtle aspect of itself, confronting the Clear Light, one hardly persist in this state, because of some kind of the fear of the own destruction. If I understand the teachings well, this confrontation is decisive about reaching the Enlightenment, if one is able to abide in it and meditate. But, usually this is not the case and it is the fear, which “push” one into the bardo state, in which one gets bardo body as the further result. As I understand exactly, this bardo body is the one, which can hold back for the moments in the same space as the ex-physical body and is sensitive to what is happening with that ex-physical body. But, when one gets the bardo body, this is already evident that there will the rebirth take place due to karma and that one didn`t reach the Enlightenment while confronting the Clear Light. Can somebody explain this, please.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Dear Frederic,

 

Thank you very much for posting what most kind Lama Rinpoche wrote on the French forum. :)

 

With best wishes,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek.

 

About making the decision to become a donator of organs in the time of death there might be also another aspect, which should not be neglected. It is about the relatives, who would be the most affected by one`s death. There are basically two options. My friend died in a car accident few hours later in the hospital. His father was asked if organs of the son could be transplanted and the decision was positive. From the part of the father I can understand as he found kind of a comfort in such a decision while he was finding himself in the state that wanted keep the son “alive” in one way. If this was the correct decision from the point of view of the son it is under the question. Can somebody make decisions in someone else`s name, even being the father? The another way is to become an official donator, so that the medicine stuff would know “in advance”. In such cases there might be in the time of death even more painful procedures for the relatives, cause the dead person would be reanimated and connected to the artificial functioning and the relatives would see the person as “half alive and half dead”. This would be even more painful if among the relatives are children.

My opinion is that if it is certain that every sentient being in the time of dying arrive to the stage of the Clear Light, no matter of way of dying (peaceful way or some teribble dead) there is no obstacle to become an organ donator. In my case, I am an organ donator in the time of death and this was clearly told to my closest relatives. Yet, I don`t want to be a donator officially “in advanced”, to not produce even more pain on the side of relatives and to avoid potential misuse.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Tashi Delek,

My opinion is that if it is certain that every sentient being in the time of dying arrive to the stage of the Clear Light, no matter of way of dying (peaceful way or some teribble dead) there is no obstacle to become an organ donator.

As I understand, it is how you approach the Clear Light that is important. If with a disturbed, frightened mind, you will not be able to "abide" in it. That is one thing, but I guess for advanced practitioners. For the others, any disturbed emotion at the time of death can lead us to a more unfortunate state of existence of the next birth. So, tranquillity of the mind at the time of death is very important.

Disturbing our conscousness by donating vital organs is not a good idea, technically speaking, without having any value-based opinion about it.

 

In my case, I am an organ donator in the time of death and this was clearly told to my closest relatives. Yet, I don`t want to be a donator officially “in advanced”, to not produce even more pain on the side of relatives and to avoid potential misuse.

I don't understand. Misuse of your wish could not happen if you clearly decided to be an official donor, no? And your realtives have been informed already...

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek, Khyenrab.

 

Then, one is approach to the Clear light and the other is abiding in it.

About approach...gross consciousness and the subtle consciousness are of the same nature. The gross consciousness arises from the subtle and is the manifestation of the subtle consciousness. Usually both would be in an interdependent relation. In the process of dying the subtle consciousness slowly step by step stops to manifest itself through/in the gross aggregates and starts to manifest through more and more subtlest aggregates. And the self would be labelled on the new, subtlest aggregates each time extra. When the consciousness moves from the gross to subtler stage I guess one wouldn` t be able to recognize the body and organs as a part of his “self”, cause one would create a new “self” from the more subtle aggregates. That`s why it seems logical that the end of the manifestation means the end of an interdependent relation, too. The aggregates start to fall apart and their parts start to become parts of some new aggregates on the level of subtleness accordingly.

About abiding in the Clear light...“When the very subtle energy-mind is manifest, it is non conceptual, one has no sense of self. When the very subtle energy-mind is manifest, it does not have the clear light as its object. It does not apprehend anything as an object. It itself is the clear light.” H. H. The Dalai Lama

 

To your question about the misuse...It is a hesitation regarding the illegal market with human organs.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Tashi Delek,

When the consciousness moves from the gross to subtler stage I guess one wouldn` t be able to recognize the body and organs as a part of his “self”, cause one would create a new “self” from the more subtle aggregates.

I will just repeat what i wrote before (and this is not my personal idea or opinion, but stated in different words by the Holy Lamas): the state of the mind at the time of death is important - it determines how well the process of death will go. If disturbed, we might miss a great oppurtunity.

Please correct me if i am wrong...

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek, Khyenrab.

 

I will just repeat what i wrote before (and this is not my personal idea or opinion, but stated in different words by the Holy Lamas)

 

I guess we are talking about the same Lamas, who also emphasize how important is we check everything they themselves teach in order to understand. That`s why I appreciate these forums in which one can enter discussions and try to deepen the understanding of what was experienced, tought, read or heard. I am willing to change my opinion, if you can explain with the arguments. It might be that I am willing to change my opinion even if lack the explanation. But, that would be something I decided not to do any longer in this life...to get fulfilled with information, which I don`t understand. The price for misunderstanding/non-understanding is high.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

The moment when consciousness find itself in the most subtle aspect of itself, confronting the Clear Light, one hardly persist in this state, because of some kind of the fear of the own destruction. If I understand the teachings well, this confrontation is decisive about reaching the Enlightenment, if one is able to abide in it and meditate. But, usually this is not the case and it is the fear, which “push†one into the bardo state, in which one gets bardo body as the further result.
Yes, but we can not give up in advance. It’s much better to try to come at least close to the realisation of shine, which is told to be already a very promising position!

 

But, when one gets the bardo body, this is already evident that there will the rebirth take place due to karma.
To my knowledge, it is clear in which realm one will be reborn. But it does not mean that parents and other conditions of living are already chosen. So one’s course of life can still be influenced.

Usually it is not - it is said that the bardo being normally doesn’t connect itself with its ex body. But for example family's strong emotions can awake one's memories and a consciousness can reconnect itself with its ex body and generate frustration. This is the danger.

But the same relative openess of the bardo gives space for beneficial influences: by prayers and rituals performed for a late being.

So: as i understand, the bardo state is mainly lead by our karma, but sometimes it is influenced in this or another way.

 

If surgeons just cut the body and take some organs away, I can not see what could distract the mind which is already in a new body. It is true that we identify ourselves with our bodies, fearing the slightest discomfort, but the process of dying already dissolves some concepts and the consciousness is already occupied with new bardo projections, isn't it?

If being a donor can help one at the time of dying to focus on saving lives, and if one is not able to bear the dissolution of ego (like non-Buddhists who believe in eternal self), i would guess that it can be good to be a donor.

 

But again, i believe that it is much better to aim for the highest goal then any of the lower ones. Specially because we know Dharma and we have the rare opportunity to practice. Just because we are usually not aware of our potentials, it does not mean that we are really not capable of them. It is often said that Enligtenment is not at all as remote and unreachable as we usually think it is! :D

 

Then, one is approach to the Clear light and the other is abiding in it.
I would say this is connected: if one is able to consciously follow the process, one is not afraid of it but instead ride on the more and more subtle states of mind in meditation and consequently remain in the state of the Clear Light to actualise its/one's potentials. 8)

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek, Ven. Ani Chödrön.

Thank you very much for your explanation.

if one is able to consciously follow the process, one is not afraid of it but instead ride on the more and more subtle states of mind in meditation and consequently remain in the state of the Clear Light to actualise its/one's potentials. 8)
It is a real challenge to consciously follow this process! It is written that the process of falling asleep is alike the process of dying. Every attempt that I have made about consciously follow the process of sleeping failed so far. After falling asleep the next would be the period of getting awake and falling asleep again in the short intervals. Like swimming above and under water in a way.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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I find this a very interesting discussion and would like to add my thoughts.

As I understand it there is a powerful opportunity for attaining enlightenment in the Bardo of dying because between dreams (one bardo to another in this case), there is always a good chance of waking up (becoming awakened).

But as I see it also the actual giving up of the body and its possesions and, even more, the giving up of all merit (translated as potential in this case) must provide an even a greater opportunity for the average Joe to awake.

Many teachings appear to warn against giving up the body in the real sense too soon, as it could lead to obstacles in ones practice, but I think this truely wonderful opportunity for renunciation and bodhiccita is just too great to dismiss lightly.

I'm for donating organs.

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