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Wangmo

Enlightenment ?

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Tashi Delek!

 

Recently, I saw an invitation to a public discussion on Enlightenment. It contains many questions about and around Enlightenment, which - I think - could be discussed here a little as well. (I translated the questions from Slovene, and apologise to the authors for all eventual mistakes I might have made. :? )

 

So, here we go: :lol:

 

1. Enlightenment, the experience of the Absolute, or the absolute experience of the Oneness, is mentioned as the crown of man's spiritual striving. Others say that there is no Enlightenment as a quantum leap in consciousness and that the human development is continuous.

 

2. Is the experience of pure bliss (samadhi) the same as Enlightenment? Is Enlightenment perhaps a gradual process, as we can read in spiritual literature? So who can be regarded as a self-realised person?

 

3. Human memory is based on the principle of the dualistic differentiation (between the figure and its background). With the experience of Oneness, all dualistic opposites fall together in formless consciousness, therefore some say that this experience can't even be understood as and experience, neither can we remember it in such a way that we could re-experience it in the usual state of the distinguishing, dualistic consciousness. How can the person then know that Enlightenment happened to him/her?

 

4. Are there some crucial conditions a person must reach to come to the threshold of a uniform, universal consciousness, un-identified with forms, or can Enlightenment happen to someone also without explicit spiritual efforts? Which are those conditions of maturity which then culminate in true self-awareness?

 

5. Is the spiritual path an issue of proven methods of development, or more of the inner attitude or the approach towards the solving of essential problems? Is the spiritual teacher a necessity, or only a valuable help? Why is it said that the teacher must confirm the fact of the student's Enlightenment, if this is in essence the most convincing, self-sufficient and definitive experience in life as such?

 

6. Can an enlightened person make mistakes, can he/she be in conflict with others, can he/she be afraid, angry and still have personal wishes? In which is he/she different from unenlightened persons, if we say that Enlightenment permanently changes the person who experienced it? What is the role of self-acceptance in spiritual development and what is this?

 

7. Some enlightened persons speak about God, and others deny it. Osho for some time spoke about the experience of God, and then he changed his mind and declared the idea of God for unnecessary. He started to use words like Universe, Life, Wholeness, Oneness etc. Is the reason the historical taint of the word or something else?

 

8. Enlightenment allegedly renews man's natural state in which he was before he has been programmed with the obsessive concentration on a fictitious egoic centre and before he inorganically separated from the Wholeness of Creation. Does an enlightened person still experience neurotic lack, in which the matter are more the thoughts and feelings than factual deficits?

 

9. Is an enlightened person spiritually sovereign, or does he/she rely on the help of higher powers? Is the hierarchical principle maintained in his/her consciousness at all? Is his/her freedom based in the cessation of the fear of the transitoriness, or perhaps in the certainty of his/her own spiritual existence? Or perhaps exactly the abolishment of any certainty leads into the only true certainty?

 

10. What attitude does an enlightened person have towards people who are up to their necks and more emerged into illusory striving for safety, pleasure, attention, worth and power? Can he/she compassionate with them, so he/she empathises with their suffering, or does he/she stay outside it? Can he/she still experience life in a dramatic way?

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I am by no means qualified to answer these questions, but it will sure be fun answering them! I might learn something! :D

 

2. Is the experience of pure bliss (samadhi) the same as Enlightenment? Is Enlightenment perhaps a gradual process, as we can read in spiritual literature? So who can be regarded as a self-realised person?

- I believe bliss, samadhi, sunyata are not equal to being Enlightened. They are indications that somebody is on the right path to Enlightenment. Bliss is a state of a non-dualistic mind, which means that there is an unconditional awareness of 'what is', normal mental afflictions are surrpassed, all anger, hate, jealousy, etc. are surpassed. I would say that a Bodhisattva is in a state of bliss - "he even breathes and sleeps" for the sake of other sentient beings. But Buddhahood awaits him still.

 

Enlightenment is not a gradual process, the path to Enlightenment is.

 

A self-realized person is somebody who is omniscient and omnipresent, there is no space or time barriers he experiences. He is a Buddha, all obscurations are destroyed, all illusion seen through. His individuality is living Wisdom.

 

3. Human memory is based on the principle of the dualistic differentiation (between the figure and its background). With the experience of Oneness, all dualistic opposites fall together in formless consciousness, therefore some say that this experience can't even be understood as and experience, neither can we remember it in such a way that we could re-experience it in the usual state of the distinguishing, dualistic consciousness. How can the person then know that Enlightenment happened to him/her?

- The state of samadhi doesn't mean that you are not able to compare samadhi from ignorance. Actually that is the one thing that must be totally clear to you, totally. Samadhi is a state of Emptiness from moment-to-moment, and the power to distinguish false from the real is sharpened far beyond ordinary intellect. Manjursi, the Buddha who dictated The Guide to the Bodhisattva way of life to Arya Shantideva, carries "the Sword of Discriminating Wisdom", he "wears the robes of the judge an jury". So, sunyata is a state of wisdom, which precicely, delicately distinguishes illusion and ignorance from truth. But it could be so involved with the service to the world that it might not even notice, it wouldn't compare its own present state with its previous state of striving for bliss (which is desire, relative ignorance). Only in that state one can start "dispeling the miseries of the world", his being and work is filled with Compassion - Bodhicitta.

 

4. Are there some crucial conditions a person must reach to come to the threshold of a uniform, universal consciousness, un-identified with forms, or can Enlightenment happen to someone also without explicit spiritual efforts? Which are those conditions of maturity which then culminate in true self-awareness?

- No practice - no Path, no Path - no Wisdom. Some say that Wisdom is the Path, that might be true, but the road to wisdom is essential. One must take the journey, effort for Ethics in all your relationships is essential. And I don't think one can reach Enlightenment without meditation, I really don't. I read somewhere that Abraham Lincoln had spent even for three days at a time in the Oval Office without moving from his chair and without even hearing anyone that came in... and he wasn't sleeping. :wink:

 

5. Is the spiritual path an issue of proven methods of development, or more of the inner attitude or the approach towards the solving of essential problems?

- I would say both, definetely. No attitude, no skillful methods - no Path.

 

Is the spiritual teacher a necessity, or only a valuable help?

- From a certain point the teacher is indespensable. As I understand it - Bodhisattvas work under Buddhas and are guided and protected by Buddhas and Their Light and Compassion.

 

Why is it said that the teacher must confirm the fact

of the student's Enlightenment, if this is in essence the most convincing, self-sufficient and definitive experience in life as such?

- When one is Enlightened one doesn't really 'need' a teacher any more. You are omniscient.

 

6. Can an enlightened person make mistakes, can he/she be in conflict with others, can he/she be afraid, angry and still have personal wishes?

- Enlightened no, but a Bodhisattva will make mistakes - there could be some more deeper attachments that he hasn't faced with yet, so small conflicts, personal preferences might come, but in his view, all he is doing is for the sake of helping others. His approach lacks totality of Compassion, but in comparison to everyday people he is 'a saint'.

 

In which is he/she different from unenlightened persons, if we say that Enlightenment permanently changes the person who experienced it?

- We must distinguish Enlightenment from Emptiness. Enlightenment is Ultimate Wisdom. Emptiness is wisdom, that can be (negativelly) compared to ignorance. The mind that experiences Emptiness is, in comparison to an ignorant "monkey" mind, wise. It is still, quiet, unruffeled by external conditions and full of 'knowledge' of how to be of real imminent help where it is needed. So the change is enormous. One needs less sleep, there is a strong concentration in everything he attends to over the day, and does the work really well, no sloppiness, laziness or inertia/frustration can touch him. He shares his strenght with others, lifts their burdens with ease, maybe just by showing that the situation isn't as serious or dramatic as it might seem. He is in total service to others - "he has sold his mind to other sentient beings".

 

What is the role of self-acceptance in spiritual development and what is this?

- I am not sure what this means.

 

7. Some enlightened persons speak about God, and others deny it.

- I don't know Osho, can't say. But he Buddha was Enlightened and he never spoke of God.

I think a wise tip would be (I don't know who said it, maybe the Buddha): "First know yourself, then ask about gods." It all comes down to Buddha and Socrates: "Know Thyself."

 

8. Does an enlightened person still experience neurotic lack, in which the matter are more the thoughts and feelings than factual deficits?

- No.

 

9. Is an enlightened person spiritually sovereign, or does he/she rely on the help of higher powers?

- As Lama Shenphen explained, there is no hierarchy between buddhas, only fields of obligations and work. I suppose there must be cooperation and 'exchanging' work but their coollaborations must be totally harmonious (I don't think Buddhas quarrel over anything, it's just not possible). And I know that all Buddhas revere and highly respect Tara, "the mother of the Buddhas". It said in the 21 Praises: "A proof agains Chaos, her beauty has powers."

 

Is his/her freedom based in the cessation of the fear of the transitoriness, or perhaps in the certainty of his/her own spiritual existence?

- I believe freedom comes when there is no more fear. Fear is desire and the annihilation of desire is the ending of fear. Our inability to face all of our fears at once is fear. The mind in motion is fear. "Any flight away from 'what is' is fear." Peaceful mind knows no motion, it is creativelly active. Motion is reaction, total action is the denial of all reaction.

A Bodhisattva is free from all 'conventional' fears. A Buddha is free from all fear.

 

Or perhaps exactly the abolishment of any certainty leads into the only true certainty?

- That's what Krishnamurti taught! ( and I really like his teachings by the way) "There is no certainty, the more you desire certainty, the more fear there is." My feeling is that there is no certainty in Emptiness, no clinging to any object of desire. There is vulnurability, innocence and therefore love - true compassion. And love is the open door on the Path to Enlightenment.

 

10. What attitude does an enlightened person have towards people w

ho are up to their necks and more emerged into illusory striving for safety, pleasure, attention, worth and power? Can he/she compassionate with them, so he/she empathises with their suffering, or does he/she stay outside it?

- Enlightened man "embodies" Compassion, he knows nothing but Kindness. He is also perfectly detached, there is no emotional or any other involvement with the suffering sentient beings. Just pure "Divine" Help.

 

Can he/she still experience life in a dramatic way?

- No.

 

These are my answeres, I hope they make sense to you, they make sense to me. I also hope they are somewhat correct. :wink:

 

Best regards.

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Hello MindOnly,

 

I like this underneath, apart from the word denial. What did you mean by it please?

 

''Motion is reaction, total action is the denial of all reaction.''

 

Regards,

Pamo

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hi pamo!

 

denial - negation, annihilation, transcendence... (i agree, maybe denial isn't the best word)

 

Krishnamurti teaches that there is no fear when we understand the whole process and quality of desire. Desire is the essential movement of the mind... When the mind is not caught in the movements between the pairs of opposites, caught in desire, there is freedom... All effort to suppress or to run away from desire is the desire itself - the flight from one opposite to another.

 

"The flight away from something, away from 'what is', is fear. Fear is flight away from something. 'What is' is not the fear, it is the flight which is the fear, and this will drive you mad."

 

www.jkrishnamurti.org

 

Best regards :)

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I believe I made some serious mistakes in "answering" the questions of Wangmo some time ago. I will try to make the answers better. It is a matter of respect for Bodhisattvas and Buddhas...

 

I believe bliss, samadhi, sunyata are not equal to being Enlightened. They are indications that somebody is on the right path to Enlightenment. Bliss is a state of a non-dualistic mind, which means that there is an unconditional awareness of 'what is', normal mental afflictions are surrpassed, all anger, hate, jealousy, etc. are surpassed.

And much more than that! Experience of Emptiness is experiencing Wisdom, the correct perception of inward and outward phenomena.

 

 

Manjursi, the Buddha who dictated The Guide to the Bodhisattva way of life to Arya Shantideva, carries "the Sword of Discriminating Wisdom", he "wears the robes of the judge an jury".

That is what I believed but had no real proof of it! Still don't! :wink: And The Buddha Embodiment of Wisdom is not Manjursi, but Majusri (Manjughosa, Protector Manjunatha)!

 

 

Enlightened no, but a Bodhisattva will make mistakes - there could be some more deeper attachments that he hasn't faced with yet, so small conflicts, personal preferences might come, but in his view, all he is doing is for the sake of helping others. His approach lacks totality of Compassion, but in comparison to everyday people he is 'a saint'.

I am filled with shame for writing this! :( Who am I to say anything about Bodhisattvas??! 8O

 

A sort of confession and a plea for pardon.

Khyenrab

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And much more than that! Experience of Emptiness is experiencing Wisdom, the correct perception of inward and outward phenomena.
To perceive "inner" versus "outer" phenomena is already a mistaken view! ;)

 

The Buddha Embodiment of Wisdom is not Manjursi, but Majusri (Manjughosa, Protector Manjunatha)!
Manjusri or Manjushri... And He doesn't wear any "robe of judge"...

 

Enlightened no, but a Bodhisattva will make mistakes - there could be some more deeper attachments that he hasn't faced with yet, so small conflicts, personal preferences might come, but in his view, all he is doing is for the sake of helping others. His approach lacks totality of Compassion, but in comparison to everyday people he is 'a saint'.

I am filled with shame for writing this! :( Who am I to say anything about Bodhisattvas??! 8O

Exactly! ;)

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Good for you that you can't hear me over the internet. No amount of prostrations could cleanse you of that horrifying experince!! :twisted:

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This might be a misunderstanding. :? Prostrations do not purify one of unpleasent feelings but of unvirtuous actions/speech/thoughts. Did you mean: "No amount of prostrations could cleanse me because of that horrifying experience that you could have if you would hear my words!" :?:

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Hmmm....

 

Tonight....

No sleep... :?

No bed... :(

No bedtimes-sory.... :cry:

 

Only....

Prostrations...

And...

Prostrations...

And....

Prostrations...

And....

Prostrations...

...

You think that will do the trick :?: :?

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I just wander by what kind of logic would my (or Admin's) making prostrations refere to something that somebody else did? 8O

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Guest admin
I just wander by what kind of logic would my (or Admin's) making prostrations refere to something that somebody else did? 8O
I think Khyenrab meant that only LOT of prostrations could purify the negative karma he is creating by what-we-can't-hear-over-internet! :wink: That is why he needs to prostrate all night! :P

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