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Khyenrab

Wanna Be Friends

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Here's one question: do you think friendship can something forced?

I don't think so.

Sometime you can meet or see people that want to force themselves on you and want to be friends with you, so to speak no matter what. I don't think it can really work, for several reasons. First is that it goes against the very nature of what a friendly relations should be all about: a relaxed stated of mind, and having a respectfully playful experience, care and so on. To try to impose or manipulate this is quite unsmart.

Also having expectations of how people should see you, or how they should behave is to my mind really completely incompatible with a relationship that can otherwise be based on somekind of kindness and support. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says in a movie: "We should be agenda free." I think this is a particularly useful advice when it comes to friendshi.

So, it seems to me that when people try to force this, it can bring all sorts of problems such as tensions, misunderstandings, bitterness and even anger, which is all unfortunate and really unnecessary, especially when a pleasant relationship would otherwise be possible and would bring comfort and ease to some somebody.

We all have a lot to learn from one another i think, so it seems to me that it would really be a source of alot of happiness if people started giving more space to one another, particularly to people we would like to befriend or to deepen the friendship. And happiness is the goal, right? :) Just a thought...

 

Best regards, K

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

My attitude towards friendship changed drastically when i took the Bodhisattva vows for the second time. Since then, i see the relations more or less as an equanimity practice. And i try to notice the needs as much as i can, instead of ignoring them, being absorbed in my life.

 

About the behavior that we do not like: His Holiness the Dalai Lama somewhere told that the Teacher can not teach us compassion and patience, only an enemy can. ;)

 

All the very best,

chodron

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Here's one question: do you think friendship can something forced?

thx K. for sharing.

I specially like the part about giving more space to eachother, less needines, maybe leaving more space for something more genuine to develop...

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Welcome, dani :)

 

My attitude towards friendship changed drastically when i took the Bodhisattva vows for the second time. Since then, i see the relations more or less as an equanimity practice.
These are nice words, Ani Chodron, and ordained or not, this is a big challenge. From our glossary, explaining equanimity: "Attitude without the usual discrimination of sentient beings into friend, enemy and stranger, deriving from the realization that all sentient beings are equal in wanting happiness and not wanting suffering."

 

I wonder if we really understand what this means. For one, it looks to me as if we need to have a good understanding of what suffering is, and should therefore have a genuine wish to become free from it. This should not mean repression of suffering (painting everything around us into an anti-suffering war-zone), but a kind of gentle understanding of it (relaxed, even-minded looking at ourselves and things around us). This is how i image it should be like. The times of partisans are over. We need to understand, and not fight blindly with bayonets against every suspected (and unidentified) type of suffering. Pliancy, flexibility, naturalness, listening, hearing (being quiet and forgetting one's own ideas and argumentations), watching with care. I pray for these things, I hope I can ...

 

Its not easy to understand this, i feel. And it is far from easy to feel this for the others. The mind is jumpy, and sees what it wants to see, this i think is a major problem here. We use Dharma terms a lot, i think we even use them too much, and the meaning can sadly be lost. What i am trying to say: what we think or what we thought we understood about Dharma - is it really genuine? I think that's a good question. We may live the life thinking that we have understood something, and this very opinion can and does close our minds from seeing something very basic, something essential. I think we should feel like we know nothing at all... and maybe let some air in the room. Start to learn anew and again, from scratch... I am just thinking out loud here... i hope with some meaning.

 

Best regards, K

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I wonder if we really understand what this means. For one, it looks to me as if we need to have a good understanding of what suffering is, and should therefore have a genuine wish to become free from it. This should not mean repression of suffering (painting everything around us into an anti-suffering war-zone), but a kind of gentle understanding of it (relaxed, even-minded looking at ourselves and things around us). This is how i image it should be like. The times of partisans are over. We need to understand, and not fight blindly with bayonets against every suspected (and unidentified) type of suffering. Pliancy, flexibility, naturalness, listening, hearing (being quiet and forgetting one's own ideas and argumentations), watching with care. I pray for these things, I hope I can ...

I know this part...seems a classical movie (from the collection of movies from my mind)...I want to help others, but if I want to spend the rest of my life helping others, then I need others to need me to help them. Do I really want to spend my time chasing, creating and searching for the neediness of others? Or do I want that once no being needs anything more, that all have happiness and its causes, that all live in equanimity, free from bias, instead of me equalising myself with you who I am helping, me being happy helping you to be happy too...

 

But how? It's almost as if one goes against the other, when I forget the big picture.

 

I've been looking at the possibilities of giving up on my role of a big movie star and offer it to the demon of self-cherishing :[ ...but I don't want him to play in a horror movie :scaredead: , nor a tragedy :verysad: , I want him to star in my action comedy...wanna be friends K. and lend me some of those bayonets, if you've finished shooting the partisan movie?

 

Its not easy to understand this, i feel.

No, I feel that to. I keep choosing wrong movies...and then have to start from scratch over and over again... :(

But I believe in happy endings!

See you at the opening night :-)

Just kidding, all best!

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Hello dani,

But how? It's almost as if one goes against the other...

i think by trying to apply equanimity in our daily lives' actions; by trying to be as honest as possible about how our mind is/works at the moment; by true - not as an idea but real mind changing energy when applied - Boddhicitta motivation.

Oh, so far from easy for me too, Khyenrab :-)

best regards

pamo

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Dear Pamo, a funny taught just crossed my mind reading your post...as I said I like action preferably mixed with humour, you might just simply be more into documentaries...K., Pamo maybe we could all go to the movies together sometimes, without trying to find a compromise about the movie we are going to see; we just go to the same place together, each buys a ticket for a show of one's choice, and after the show, we all get together for a nice ice-cream - my treat...well, tea if you prefer..., if we feel up to it...

Of course if anyone else cares to join...

You can take it sybolically or more litterally, its Christmas time afterall...

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Guest Ani.Chödrön
Its not easy to understand this, i feel. And it is far from easy to feel this for the others.
I agree. I was taught by my parents since the earliest childhood to place the others before oneself and that happiness can not come from searching for one's own good but from searching for the good of the others. Despite their raising me in compassion (for which i am deeply grateful), when i took the Bodhisattva vows for the first time, the vastness of the Mahayana view astonished me so much, that i felt as the ground i am standing on is getting cracks and threatens to fall apart. This was too scary to comprehend, but it prepared the ground for the next time.

 

I see taking Bodhisattva vows as one of the best opportunities to thoroughly change one's life. Yet, as with all life-changing events, a lot of unpleasant things can came out: how much do i follow my ideals, how much time and thoughts do i dedicate for the others and how much to myself, how many times do i follow my own comfort when i know the needs of others, how judgmental i am towards the others, why do i step back when meeting this or that person, where are the equanimity and Bodhichitta ideals when the conditions are not perfect... Not a pleasant view at all, i did not want my ego to take so much space, so it took me quite a while to swallow it. But it was worthwhile: since i took the Mahayana vows for the second time, i've been able to make lifetime decisions, like, i will do my best not to (inwardly) reject any being who approaches me, no matter in which conditions i or the other is...

 

It is a long-term process, of course, but still, even just walking in this direction has deeply changed my attitudes towards the others already now. I know no approach to this topic as preserving and developing this inner attitude.

 

All the very best,

chodron

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Dear dani :-) ,

Pamo maybe we could all go to the movies together sometimes
sure, why not, it could be nice. But since we are already together somewhere - on the Path - taking it symbolically,
without trying to find a compromise about the movie we are going to see
I though your goal too was Enlightenment.

I thought you exposed a real question behind those words. But you're more into movies-like conversation ;)

My treat: honesty. (And hot chocolate :-) when we go and if you come out of the movies first...to order ;))

my best wishes

pamo

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I thought you exposed a real question behind those words. But you're more into movies-like conversation ;)

I was exposing a question... but I am into the movies also, I am sorry :-(...I like to see life as a little movie, it helps me not take it tooo seriously...

What I meant, in reference to all the above, specially inspired by some of K.'s remarks, is that some of us might go to the same place, listen to the same teachings, from same teachers, come to same practices, ...and yet, like K. mentioned, I have often noticed too, when we shared something about that experience later on or discussed what we have heard, it seemed as if we've seen a completely different "movie",....and then there is "tension" or "confusion" because of some "firendly advice" from a friend who heard someting, what (s)he believes to be the truth, and debate that follows on what is the right thing and how to do, how it is correct to understand, on the basis of that how we should behave, what has to be clarified, what should be followed, what must not be done...with noble motivation of friends wanting to help behind it...

Giving some space to each other, for me means also allowing each other to see and live different movies, not forcing nor expecting from each other to think, behave, understand teachings, advice...the same way, just because we come to the same "cinema"...I don't know if this would fit the applied Bodhicitta you mentioned...I really still haven't quite grassped Bodhicitta...

But since we are already together somewhere - on the Path - taking it symbolically, I though your goal too was Enlightenment.

... with a qualified Guru to direct our movies... not only is my goal Enlightenment, dear Pamo, I am sure yours i too, and have no doubt, soner or latter, all of us in this cinema, regardless of the movie we are currently starring in (or the Path we are walking, running, taking short-cuts, getting into blind alleys, D-turns...on), will reach that Enlightened state...and I look forward to that hot chocolate and an ice-cream... :0022:

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Hello,

Here's one question: do you think friendship can something forced?

I don't think so.

I agree, friendship cannot and should not be forced. It is anyhow a part of one's private life, so one cannot expect from the others to like him or her as one can expect from a public official to serve the public (i.e. to serve also him or her :read_this: ).

 

I think one can have compassion/equanimity for e.g. a serial killer, but that doesn't mean that one is 'spiritually obliged' to invite this serial killer for a cup of tea or to socialize with him and even less that the serial killer is entitled to demand/expect such a behaviour from the others, basing the demand/expectation on the commitment of others to bodhicitta or equanimity :taptap: . I guess this stands for all the people not only 'serial killers'.

 

Friendship probably presupposes some degree of similarity in the current life situation - age, status, worldview etc. I guess that friends can in general relate to each other more easily than to the other people due to the mentioned similarities - because of that they can also help each other more efficiently. Conventionally we interact with a limited number of sentient beings and eventually on a level of friendship only with some humans (this is a matter of fact not a statement regarding one's spiritual goal). In this context I think friendship doesn't necessarily include 'holding some beings (some people) more special than the others'. Surely, there is also attachment involved with friendship, but how can it be otherwise in relations to any people, until one has some realizations?

 

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says in a movie: "We should be agenda free." I think this is a particularly useful advice when it comes to friendshi.

If one has 'an agenda' with people in general, as it can be perceived in many of religious traditions :bishop: - i.e. if one is trying to adapt to the people (by e.g. interacting with them on 'their mundane level') in order to adapt people to one's ideas - with a hidden plan of luring them into religion/culture or providing them with some sort of salvation (i.e. if one, who is not realized, uses too many 'skillful means'), it might lead to worse results than just 'plain' friendship - worse not only from the attachment point of view.

 

Firstly, it is deeply disrespectful to assume that others are seeking 'salvation' and that one is self-entitled to help them to reach it :vieuxsmiley: (it seems that a hidden, sometimes unconscious arrogance, a sort of perversely twisted 'will to power' is permeating such an attitude). Secondly, thinking that 'others need a change' usually corresponds to the blindness for one's own mistakes. Like some priests forcing themselves in celibacy (repressing their own sexuality), consequently getting involved in pedophilia and/or developing an emotionally based help-support-needing-vicitim-like but actually more emotionally extortionary/abusive attitude towards the others and at the same time lecturing to the people about the great evils of contraception&need for a higher birth-rate 8*. Thirdly - even from a totally pragmatic point of view - if one really set on the mission to enlist/hook up as many people as possible - people are not stupid and can see, if someone is acting unnaturally because he or she is on a 'missionary crusade' and are consequently turned off completely (I know I would be) and can reject religion as a whole.

 

Of course, this criticism of 'agenda driven help' doesn't relate to the Realized beings, who clearly operate on a different scale and teach on request instead of requesting to teach. I guess all of us, who are not realized, can try to change ourself and the rest should follow naturally.

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

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What I meant, in reference to all the above, specially inspired by some of K.'s remarks, is that some of us might go to the same place, listen to the same teachings, from same teachers, come to same practices, ...and yet, like K. mentioned, I have often noticed too, when we shared something about that experience later on or discussed what we have heard, it seemed as if we've seen a completely different "movie",....
haaa, i understand you better now :) But, what would be closer to what you expected to hear when asking about how to switch from "chasing, creating and searching for the neediness of others" to a simple wish "that once no being needs anything more, that all have happiness and its causes, that all live in equanimity, free from bias", more humor in action comedy style ;), more for you?

 

I remember asking our precious Rinpoche, (but loooong ago ;)) if there is always work for a Bodhisattva. Few minutes later when talking about something with our Rinpoche Geshe Khedrup, who was here on the visit, burst into laugh so strong that it filled every little place of that gompa. Not at all probably in connection with my question, this laughter of his today reminds me of a comedy of my question. Then, looking for a new meaning and sense in life, trying to see if i can identify with what i shall be setting for my goals, i was asking such silly questions, showing mostly preoccupation with how "I" will be with it. Well, the suffering is all around, wherever i look, wherever i turn, there is always always some help needed; in many many possible forms.

Not at all able to do something about so much of it, i have to learn to relax in the middle of it and do one step at the time. To just simply relax in a pure wish, trying to generate it as often as possible makes me come out of my ego drive; then i see better.

 

... with a qualified Guru to direct our movies... not only is my goal Enlightenment, dear Pamo, I am sure yours i too, and have no doubt, soner or latter, all of us in this cinema, regardless of the movie we are currently starring in (or the Path we are walking, running, taking short-cuts, getting into blind alleys, D-turns...on), will reach that Enlightened state...
:bow:

 

and I look forward to that hot chocolate and an ice-cream... :0022:
great! :laugh:

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But, what would be closer to what you expected to hear...

I see, I see, dear Pamo, and I really do agree.

It is just that sometimes I start to question my own perception. When I look aoround, the suffering that I see, do

see it because Buddha taught the first Noble Truth and I believe Him, do I see it because I am experiencing it and the world around me is

the projection of my mind or is it really the suffering of others t

at I am perceiving?

 

The wish to help is certainly very noble and even more so the source of accumulation. No problem there. It is when I start to act on that w

sh that things get more complicated. When I "help" those, whose suffering I see, whose wounds am I healing? Am I capable of really perceiving the needs of the others, can I really heal their wounds, or I am just doing what I think is the right thig, the best thing, the only possible thing, on the basis of what? My wisdom? - hahaha - Or on the basis of my own wound of disturbed emotions? Draftsman put this in much nicer words, in fact....

 

I do not intend to stand still, of course, and do nothing to help others, to the contrary, but that space K. introduced to debate really made me think this might be it...that little space could give me a better idea about the way things really exist vis a vis suffering or needs of others and what I can eventually do now to help... but once I resolve this annoing little inconvenience of ignorance, perventing me to see things as they are...whatch out the demons of selfish concern, the monstorous D., pinky in colour with 6 and a half legs with K's bayonets of Bodhicitta...

:prayer:

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Yes. And to wash away the demons of self concerns (which is usually also main reason for allowing no space) i know i should practice equanimity, honesty and constant checking of my motivation. Because when i do, it does make a difference. :prostate:

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I agree, friendship cannot and should not be forced. It is anyhow a part of one's private life, so one cannot expect from the others to like him or her as one can expect from a public official to serve the public (i.e. to serve also him or her

I agree here, but i would make a small step back. There are some things that simply cannot be forced, and friendship is certainly one of them. Then it is not so much a matter of liking or not, it is a matter of practical impossibility.

if one really set on the mission to enlist/hook up as many people as possible - people are not stupid and can see, if someone is acting unnaturally because he or she is on a 'missionary crusade' and are consequently turned off completely

So very true. Another thing that seems important to me that we can contemplate. We (and others) can only receive so much help as which (and how many ) causes we have accumulated... My understanding is that here also - nothing can be forced. If we try, i don't think it is helping anyone but the Ego. And needless to say, not everybody is seeking religion. People may only need a friend that will listen. I think many do.

I guess all of us, who are not realized, can try to change ourself and the rest should follow naturally.
I feel that's the only way...
the monstorous D., pinky in colour with 6 and a half legs with K's bayonets of Bodhicitta... :prayer:

I guess you really like movies. :) Me too, actually...

If you re-read my post, the 'bayonets point' had a different meaning. Instead of fighting against suffering, we can try to better understand what is happening within the mind. I guess the proper word would be awareness.

Best regards, K

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Guest Ani.Chödrön
Then it is not so much a matter of liking or not, it is a matter of practical impossibility.
The only thing that we can change is the limits of our ego; and by doing it, we change the "outer" limits as well.

 

All the very best,

chodron

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The only thing that we can change is the limits of our ego; and by doing it, we change the "outer" limits as well.
I feel there's many things that we can do, but the main focus that we should and can have in our practice is - inner work. Planting seeds that we can pray will one day help the others. If we try to be too smart and too helpful without any 'inner ammunition', we will not really be helping, will we? Having an idea that we must help is still only an idea.

My point is, the meditation cushion is waiting. :) To make ourselves better, more peaceful, more loving... and let's have a Mount Everest of Patience - firstly for ourselves and secondly, for the others.

 

No force needed, only quiet perseverance. :) And this i feel is something that we can share...

 

With best wishes, K

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Guest Ani.Chödrön
No force needed, only quiet perseverance. :) And this i feel is something that we can share...
Sure. :bow: Maybe we could call it "peaceful joyeous effort". :laugh:

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Hello,

When I "help" those, whose suffering I see, whose wounds am I healing? Am I capable of really perceiving the needs of the others, can I really heal their wounds, or I am just doing what I think is the right thig, the best thing, the only possible thing, on the basis of what? My wisdom? - hahaha -

I guess we can help only with the wisdom and qualities we possess and it is probably better to help, if only with a limited scope of possibilites than do nothing, providing the person we are helping asked for it. In any case, I am sure your movie will have a happy ending ;) .

 

Something different: about the previous parable. I didn't mean to say that celibacy is something negative or that certain religious communities cannot deal with it. In any case, it was an inappropriate parable. I wanted to say (quoting the Buddha, I found the saying on the net, hopefully it is authentic :dontknow: ): "A man should first direct himself in the way he should go. Only then should he instruct others." In any case I guess helping others along the way is not completely excluded, albeit the motivation might 'a bit' ego-tainted :blush: .

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

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Dear All,

I am more than happy for this topic. I have funnily thought about it without knowing that it was discussed on the forum.

 

I think that we need to understand that there are several ways to help and there are also different types of sufferings. I am in Samsara and I suffer.. I admit. But what is wrong is that someone would out of a sudden take me as their experiment and try their best to help me. If I am on the street, really poor, no food, no clothing...nothing...I would deeply appreciate every penny. If I feel hurt deeply I would appreciate someone understanding the experience I go through, yet in this case trust needs to be established first. So I agree. Friendship should not be forced.

 

Yet there is also suffering that comes from not understanding the way things are. And in this case there can be compassion which is not directly connected with action. with action I mean - I help you by offering you a chocolate, talk and so on. Firstly I perceive myself wrongly, then wrong perception of chocolate follows, then wrong perception of the friendship also. How can we help in this case? How can an ignorant person help another ignorant? How can I have trust into an ignorant person? Why does my friend try to be more than what he or she is? Maybe to understand that we are all on the path, still ignorant and that to heal oneself from this is not short like i talk. It takes a bit more time. It requires patience.

 

So if someone tries to push help on me, one does not understand that there are levels of friendship and devotion. One wants to become a different type of a friend. Like a more profound friend. The next thing is that the person might not understand that I as a suffering person have chosen my own guide. Lastly I believe there is a lot of bitterness in this world already, so I might benefit more from a honest and relaxed Dharma practitioner who has the flexibility. Flexibility to help when I ask for it and also the relaxness as a continuing nature of this friendship.

 

So the best Dharma friend from my point of view is the one that understands that there is a big need for help. Yet in order to really help one needs to become free from the sickness of Igorance himself or herself. So such friend searches from truth in his/her own private practices...being a great example of a practitioner he or she rises inspiration and so is very beneficial. Such friend then is of support to my own practice (without really offering help to me). In addition when I ask for advice also a great source of further understandings.

 

I feel there's many things that we can do, but the main focus that we should and can have in our practice is - inner work. Planting seeds that we can pray will one day help the others. If we try to be too smart and too helpful without any 'inner ammunition', we will not really be helping, will we? Having an idea that we must help is still only an idea.My point is, the meditation cushion is waiting. :) To make ourselves better, more peaceful, more loving... and let's have a Mount Everest of Patience - firstly for ourselves and secondly, for the others. No force needed, only quiet perseverance. :) And this i feel is something that we can share...With best wishes, K
I agree completely with you Khyenrab. Sometimes help can become like addiction. We can get addicted to help the others (in a wrong way). We do not look inside who we are, where we are. Are we equipped to help? Is our help abusive? We take help into something that help is not. Help should be helpful and should not be our mental satisfaction. Of course I think better to have motivation to help then anything else. Yet sometimes I think it would be good to direct help to ourselves too. Since in such way we will help the others more.

 

with many best wishes,B.

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Guest tata

I think friends are openhearted to each other and others as well. In friendship to sustain in long term there must be deep respect and full acceptance.

When someone (from "outside") makes a contact with us it might be also his or hers call for help.

And we can learn from anyone - if we are open and ready to listen.

 

do you think friendship can something forced?

no,

but it can be given.

 

Regards, Khetsun

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Dear Khetsun,

but it can be given.
that's nice :-)
When someone (from "outside") makes a contact with us it might be also his or hers call for help.
yes, but how to know this? we have learned to put on masks and are not ready to actually ask for it with all our being; honestly; there's many times a little something that wants to be kept back, to not show ourselves completely. I know that's not easy, and maybe not even necessary all the time, but the environment acts upon what we present. And we are not aware of our hidden agenda many times, just our momentary need. Not even that. And yes, maybe we are already even hungry of a pure, true friendly contact, that we want it so badly that we might even appear like we would like to force it. My experience is that becoming better and better friend with myself alone (by acceptance of who i am at the moment, how i tend to act, think) makes just the same result with the environment. Just as you too say: "deep respect and full acceptance" towards oneself. Is that possible? What is respect in fact? Shall, can we talk about this?

my very best wishes :-)

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Guest tata
yes, but how to know this? we have learned to put on masks and are not ready to actually ask for it with all our being

this is were our wisdom and compassion is put on test

 

What is respect in fact?

to take everyone equal, not to put oneself above or below other(s), not to judge or disregard (self or others)

 

 

Warmest Regards, Khetsun

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My experience is that becoming better and better friend with myself alone (by acceptance of who i am at the moment, how i tend to act, think) makes just the same result with the environment. Just as you too say: "deep respect and full acceptance" towards oneself. Is that possible? What is respect in fact? Shall, can we talk about this?

my very best wishes :-)

 

What an important question. I will try to give a one sided answer in the form of a story. Once, I was driving in a car with two other women. We talked about love, forgiving and so on, when one of them said: "But how can I love another being when I do not love even myself?" I think, this question has a lot to do with respect or self-respect.

Usually we have an authoritarian form of (self)-respect: I respect you because you have so much power, are hierarchically higher than me and can influence my life/future etc. The other image of self-respect is somehow best presented by Claudia Schiffer in the L'Oréal publicity: "I do this because I respect myself". Buying this or other goods, for a better self-image is a consumerist kind of self-respect.

It was hard for me (and is still hard for me) to understand what a real respect is. I think a real respect is based on the capacity to observe, it is based on mindfulness, in short. You can observe how people react and what are thier deeds, how they talk. On the basis of that you can see, of course, the imperfections, ego-reactions etc. but also golden and precious seeds of virtues. >One can respect and appreciate them, althought perhaps (let us take the metaphor of "gold") in non-purified form.

And the same goes, I think, for self-respect. It then opens heart, on the basis of such a mindful respect you can try to see a person as a whole.

And: the friends are good when we can cry with them, they are better when we can have good time with them, but they are best when they respectfully give us our mirror image.

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