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Christians / Non-Christians

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My own little view of words. With non-Buddhists especially, there is confusion among definitions of words we use all the time such as compassion, kindness and niceness. What they tend to think is compassion or kindness is something that helps them or makes them feel better (either directly or indirectly). I do not think that kindness or compassion necessarily involves the other person feeling good. What is helpful, what teaches, what is the kindest/most compassionate thing may not feel good for that person at all. At least not in that moment. So, in relationships, too, what is honest, best, really kind, may not feel good or be taken as such by the other person at that time. That's where the skilfull means come in, i think. I am not particularly good with those sometimes. I also do not have the insight or wisdom to know what is truly best to do, so i just do my best to not harm.

All of that talk about definitions holds true for the word detachment, too. Talking with a girlfriend or boyfriend about detachment would require some really careful wording. Not just saying detached, because that has similar meaning to "apathy" with most people. And, it should be understood early in the relationship before expectations develop too much. At least i think that is part of what went wrong in mine the last couple of times... :wink:

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I agree completely! Important points you made there! :P

What I have experienced with many Christians who have very strong beliefs, really deep faith, is that sentimentality is the dominant factor in approach to others. Which means that you are either their best friend until death, or their enemy for eternity. There is a lot of high affection, loud praise of somebody's virtue, and there is loud ruthless slander of somebody's vices, misdeeds. Also with partner relationships, if they wouldn't want to marry a person, they would not even consider being with them to just "see what happens next". That is really to be respected I think.

The main problem with Christianity is sentimentality, the upholding of the highest emotions - an aspiration whitch usually lacks purity of the mind. That is why there is so much judgemental morality and anger and prejudice from an "average" Christian. I am not putting anybody or Christianity down, not at all, but these are my observations. Christ is to be respected and His teaching to be implemented, the strange and interesting thing is that being very religious might prevent you from doing that. :? But this is something to discuss in another "topic".

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek!

 

What I have experienced with many Christians who have very strong beliefs, really deep faith, is that sentimentality is the dominant factor in approach to others. Which means that you are either their best friend until death, or their enemy for eternity. There is a lot of high affection, loud praise of somebody's virtue, and there is loud ruthless slander of somebody's vices, misdeeds. Also with partner relationships, if they wouldn't want to marry a person, they would not even consider being with them to just "see what happens next". That is really to be respected I think.

The main problem with Christianity is sentimentality, the upholding of the highest emotions - an aspiration whitch usually lacks purity of the mind. That is why there is so much judgemental morality and anger and prejudice from an "average" Christian.

 

Excuse me my boldness, but if you read the sentences above, some of them seem pretty judgmental, don't they? But as I understood, you are not Christian, are you? :wink: So, with my hawk-eye-logic (your definition) I will conclude that what you describe is perhaps something appearing in the population at large, not exclusively Christians, but maybe it can also appear among Buddhists?

 

But as we are under the topic of partnership: exactly what you describe and practically show above ("judgmental morality and anger and prejudice") may be perhaps one of the problems in partnerships too?

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Yes, they are judgemental (my sentences). I don't think there is anything wrong with judging if you can do it without emotional reaction, without cynicism, sarcasm, negativism... No, I do not consider myself a Christian, though I was baptised soon after birth! I am happy to say that recently I have taken Refuge in the Three Jewels - now I consider myself a happy Buddhist. :)

No, not hawk-eye logic - but hawk-eye wisdom! :) I agree with you up to a certain point (about anger being a general caracteristics of the whole population etc...). But I wanted to make a distinction between Buddhism and Chistianity. Being a Christian certainly might help you to find more stable inner peace than being (staying) an atheist. But this depends solely on the individual. That certainly goes for Buddhism and Buddhists as well. If you accept and understand karma, you don't really have any other choice. But... There is a question of wisdom which has been preserved within different religions. This will be (for somebody extremely emotionally maybe) judgemental, but I am not saying it to advertize or propagate Buddhism in any way, to me it is a simple fact): the keen wisdom with which the Buddhist sacred texts touch the basic ignorance of the dull ignorant mind and the power of compassion they open our hearts far surpass the Bible. The Bible is not practical, it has deep wisdom in it, but it is very hard to understand exactly what the text means, a lot of dogmatism will do that. Diligent analytical exactness of Buddhist texts leaves no room for doubt. And if there is a Tibetan Lama who can explain further the meaning of the text, Buddhism is the best practical advice on how to peacefully and happily lead your common everyday life. There are no real contradictions in it! I think it is extremely hard for somebody to have real peace of mind without at least reading some Dharma text. Many Christians have peace of mind but my observation is that it can easily be spoiled when difficult situations arise, they may have an open heart but without a steady mind, the heart gets contaminated by anger, fear, doubt. So, to have a steady, peaceful mind, that is the real factor! Without at least hearing about Emptiness and Bodhicitta - this is impossible for me to imagine... And to answer you question - this is of course extends to partner relationships as well. In reality, only the mind really matters, the state, the motivation of the mind - if peaceful and compassionate, all the relationships with others will be fruitful, if not, nobody will really really like you.

 

My (previous) judgements were based on the behaviour of my few friends. I would say that there are different stages or levels of being religious, from the mildest soft-soul aspirant to a hardcore believer ("mighty warrior of Conversion"). The people I know are far from being soft soul aspirants. :wink: Yet, I couldn't say that they are the hardest hardcore! So, with this background, I state again what I had stated before about "anger, prejudice, moral judgments" (I leave it up to you if this is generalization or not).

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Hello !! :D

 

I was batisted too and had my confirmation as well. You talk about the bible and you are true when you say, they are a lot of dogmatism, but know that the dogmatism was writing and translating so many times ago, that had transform all the sacred speaches of the Christ ! But they are much and much "parables" and "links" with our daily life ! If you don't wait a moment to read and try to understand what all the writings would say, you'll never understand. And that kind of reaction face of any stuff make a misunderstanding and a frustration of the real meaning that drive (in most of cases) to the extremism and non-recpect. But that doesn't only concern the bible especially, all texts, all speaches and all lessons, if they aren't listen and understand we damn them.

 

I don't preach the holy bible .. but I pay attention to all the sacred thing and make my own judgment (celts, native american, aboriginals ...)! about this, I was always called "the thinker" by the prayer of my village (I don't no why lol) :wink: !

 

About compassion, in christiannity, the compassion has not to be compared to buddhism. But if someone really understand all the "images", his compassion, his love and faith, he gives it to everybody, he will help the more he could. Yes the buddhists monks and chritians monks haven't the same way, but I could think that a real christian have the same goal !

 

If some people(christians for exemple) could be so easily spoiled it's because, they don't take time to analyze and think, and they aren't guide to the way of real patience, to say; occidental people don't really want to find it. is there a contradiction because they want more time ... but they don't take the Good time, they jump into other things when they find difficulties ?? that's because no one have learnt them patience and the idea that they have the capacities and the opportunity to win a challenge and then be more happy and satisfy.

 

It's like a child, if you don't teach him to be polite (or any kinda stuff), he'll never know what does it mean and then never apply this education ! (but there are some exeptions, that's why the exeptions confirm the rule).

It's easy to say they have no longer patience, no longer an open-heart or open-mindedness, if nobody teach them .. but that's true that we can't give them all the excuses ! we cannot throw them the first stone ! we have all our part of misunderstanding !

 

We canno damn the one who's the subject to the differents bad emotions and extrems emotions. But we can help him to change this way !

For exemple, my sister's daughter, is really an hard little girl, she makes all what she wants to do, she have no interdiction (exept when her father watch the tv the sunday morning) she had all what she wants (really all) but she was never sitisfy by what she had ... you know why ??? what she really needed, was love from her parents .. I have kept her during 2 months, at the beginning it was hard, 'cause I'm more severe than her parents and never failled to her quirks ! I had to teach her to be polite, to don't eat at every hours of the day, to sleep early and don't watch TV at 11 (she was 7y old). If I had no patience, I'd never staid there during 2 months. And I'm christian, at the base .. it's all in the head ! If you say to yourself that never you'll achieve this problem or challenge, never you'll finish it !

 

it's all a processus of thinking !

it's what I think, but I'll be happy that someone emend me if I had make a mistake ! :D

 

Friendly,

Angy

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Hello, dear Angy :D

 

There is absolutely nothing I can't agree with in what you wrote above. I have read a little bit of the Bible but it never really caught my attention. Of course: both Christians and Buddhists have the same goal - mecy, compassion, kindness, help to others... my only remark would be (and I am not writing this to oppose you, but because I really believe it) that Buddhism has the methods to develop wisdom (true detachment) - especially meditation. In Chritianity there is no such thing, as far as I know. And this is a very important distinction. How can you know what is your mind really up to, if you don't meditate at least once a day? What is the motive behind a wish, behing a thought, behind your plans and words and actions? I think you cannot go that deep without somekind of analytical meditation. Motivation to be good is not enough, you need to delicately reason with your mind on a daily basis, to check and check and check - again and again. Who is in control, yare you or are your emotions leading your perception and therefore your entire life? That is my experience - no checking - no introspection - all is blur! All is confusion. :?

 

My first spiritual education was Krishnamurti. :) He is really hard to understand, no concrete answers at all - "Look for yourself.", but I loved his "poetic prose filled with wisdom" from the first time I opened one of his books. Of course later I read different stuff, but I continue to read his books and after 10 years of reading I could say that I am maybe starting to understand what he was trying to say. :D

 

I would really recommend Lama Yeshe! :P (If you can't come to Lama Shenphen Rinpoche's teachings in Slovenia, that is! :D ). You can find many splendid articles on his web-site! :wink:

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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I absolutly agree with you, that's right that the christiannity doesn't offer any kinda method to make an inner restrospection, maybe 'cause during the middle-ages all the sacred voices were spoild by power , treasure and perversion, also against "witches" and the "coisades" ... the money took a great place during this time .. and it still !

 

wow slovenia is far from my little region of Alsace in France .. :cry: so I'll go to the Lama Yeshe's Web site !!

Or once a time, if I'll have the money I'll come to slovenia ... lol what a great idea !! :D but I have the time .. héhé

 

Lot of love,

Angy

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Tashi Delek!

 

Yes, they are judgemental (my sentences). I don't think there is anything wrong with judging if you can do it without emotional reaction, without cynicism, sarcasm, negativism...

Hum hum - I got a slightly different opinion from Rinpoche himself (on this forum) ... Now I am not sure who to listen to? :twisted:

 

The Bible is not practical, it has deep wisdom in it, but it is very hard to understand exactly what the text means ...

In another place you say the same about Krishnamurti, only in that case this seems to be a positive sentence? Why the difference? :wink:

 

Many Christians have peace of mind but my observation is that it can easily be spoiled when difficult situations arise, they may have an open heart but without a steady mind, the heart gets contaminated by anger, fear, doubt.

You say that Buddhism offers better means. I don't disagree with that. But, please, how many Buddhists do you know who have peace of mind etc.?? The contents of the teachings don't automatically attach themselves to you and bring results, while you sit and watch TV. (Only the miraculous battery-powered-fat-removers work while you watch TV and relax. ) So, again, as with anything, it depends on how deeply one engages into something, and on how much one applies the teachings - and on the number of days, weeks, months, years, decenies, lives one spends to achieve a result.

There is a saying: "It isn't hard to become a father, but it is very hard to be a father." :wink:

 

And by the way: His Holiness specifically warned people who are new Buddhists to especially take care to take the correct attitude towards other religions ... to appreciate and acknowledge the centuries of contribution of Judaism and Christianity to the human society, and to strive to serve humanity together.

 

In reality, only the mind really matters, the state, the motivation of the mind - if peaceful and compassionate, all the relationships with others will be fruitful, if not, nobody will really really like you.

Aha, what is this now - we wish to have a peaceful mind to be liked by others? 8O I was convinced there must be another reason ... :wink:

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In another place you say the same about Krishnamurti, only in that case this seems to be a positive sentence? Why the difference?

Read Krishnamurti and you'll see.

 

You say that Buddhism offers better means. I don't disagree with that.

Then we agree.

 

In reality, only the mind really matters, the state, the motivation of the mind - if peaceful and compassionate, all the relationships with others will be fruitful, if not, nobody will really really like you.

Aha, what is this now - we wish to have a peaceful mind to be liked by others? 8O I was convinced there must be another reason ...

Which reason would that be? :wink:

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Read Krishnamurti and you'll see.

I did my homework in reading things you classify as hard to understand: I read the Bible, perhaps not every word, and some parts more and some parts less, but well enough. So I can save myself the reading of Krishnamurti, I guess? :wink:

 

Then we agree.

Haha - if you have changed your mind and would put your signature under everything I wrote, then we agree, yes. The other way around - hardly. :wink:

 

Which reason would that be? :wink:

As we are under the topic of partnership - perhaps something from the domain of partnerships/relationships? :wink:

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Haha - if you have changed your mind and would put your signature under everything I wrote, then we agree, yes. The other way around - hardly. :wink:

The distinction I made was based on teachings and methods of both religions. Buddhists constantly trying to appease the mind by meditation, whereas Christians do not consider patience and peacefulness of the mind to be of prime importance it seems, for them deep emotional serenity seems to be more important. Isn't that so? Who has a better starting position?

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Hello everybody !!

 

You may right Khyenrab, the most important thing in the christianity, is the deeper emotion that a human can have, this emotion is love and compassion to others !

 

But I think, that today, the adjectiv "christian" couldn't be use anymore ! Why ? because the most of people have no damn about religion, for the most of them, this therm own to the middle-ages ! Know it's really rare to find someone very anchor to his religion in the West. I'll admit that all the reasons why are escaping to me, I don't know all the reasons, but I can imagine that some of the causes aren't dated from our generation, but more earlier ! The developpment of the society, the different revolutions, the mentality, the technology, are all some great instruments that had stopped the devellopment and prevent the ideologies of christianity in all it's philosophy ! Some exemple in the US ! The technologies the settler brought with them to America stopped the spiritual devellopment of the different native american Cultures and people ! but in the reverse to us in the Western Europe, the Native had still their own culture ... well try to keep it alive ! because they had to fight (in most of cases : dreadfully), but in the Europe, it was an evolution that's why people hadn't assess the consequences.

Finally we can say that if the christianity hadn't devellopt the same dogmas, it's because of many reasons, and the people who lead this religion had forget the principal assumption and code of ethic, never forget that the christianity were (during a long time) in the possession of royalty and then the money ... and we all know what money and power can do if we're too attached to it !!! ...

Well, we can't really blame and can't really treat in pity, all what do the christians, about emotions and what they think about, but it's a necessary to give them the living of doubt.

But I really agree about the real needing for this religion to find the real basis of the speahes of lord Christ, it was too much manipulated ...

 

Don't you think we're going away from the real subject ?

 

I'm open to suggestion . . . :wink:

see you soon

Angy

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Hello,

"See you soon." - Are you coming to Slovenia? :D Most welcomed! :)

Yes, I agree again, the real Ethics has been commercialized and therefore ruined beyond recognition. :(

 

Do you know the joke about the devil and the piece of truth? :) "The devil and his disciple were sitting on the veranda and saw a man who picked up a piece of truth. The disciple concerned asked the Devil: "Master, isn't this dangeros, will you not take it away from him?!" The devil patiently and smilingly answered: "Oh, no - I will let him organize it!" :P

 

Good night, :)

Khyenrab

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héhé I didn't know that !!

 

Ahhh slovenia .. it's to far from home .. I could in september but I've not enough money !! :lol: héhé !

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The distinction I made was based on teachings and methods of both religions.

Yet you admit that you didn't read the Bible. So ...

 

Buddhists constantly trying to appease the mind by meditation, whereas Christians do not consider patience and peacefulness of the mind to be of prime importance it seems, for them deep emotional serenity seems to be more important. Isn't that so? Who has a better starting position?

This, I think, depends entirely on the mind in question.

One of the two main messages of Christianity is to love your neighbour as yourself, isn't that so? What is wrong with this teaching? The first main teaching is in fact: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind. " For all I know this practice may very well appease the mind too.

And it doesn't mean much if the people practicing Christianity have or don't have all these qualities - as all Buddhist also don't display boundless equanimity, patience, compassion etc. I think the message is to work on these qualities, to try to come as near to the ideal as possible.

And even with the best intention and effort, some time is necessary too. A child in primary school may be on the way to university - but not there yet. :wink:

 

So, from a few cases of Christians who didn't (yet) realise the ideal of their religion, you can hardly conclude that the whole religion is worthless. With the same right someone can take a few examples of Buddhists who didn't (yet) realise the ideals of Buddhism, and declare Buddhism as worthless too. :wink:

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So, from a few cases of Christians who didn't (yet) realise the ideal of their religion
:):D:lol: I couldn't resist! :wink:

Sad but true, the Crusads and Inquisition were make by *few* Christians who didn't (yet) realised the ideal of their religion! :evil:

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¦#133; Hm. ¦#133; There¦#146;s indeed a lot of similarity between partnerships and other social relationships. The same type of mind is creating both, I guess.

 

And Bodhicitta and Wisdom obviously aren¦#146;t as simply reachable as they seem at the beginning. A lot of multilevel work to reach firm ground, I guess.

 

Nice to have this forum. Thank you.

All the best.

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So, from a few cases of Christians who didn't (yet) realise the ideal of their religion
:):D:lol: I couldn't resist! :wink:

Sad but true, the Crusads and Inquisition were make by *few* Christians who didn't (yet) realised the ideal of their religion! :evil:

Nice try. :wink:

But according to my knowledge of history, the Inquisition and Crusades weren't made by "a few" individuals, but by an organisation. It is sad if the organisation has principles which support the "evil ideas" of its members, instead of countering them - especially if the organisation is declared as "spiritual" or "religious". From my point of view, this doesn't say anything about the religious teachings. It is questionable how much of the original teachings is being preserved, taught or applied by such an organisation at all! Exactly as those two examples are directly opposed to the very clear commandment "You shall not kill", which is a content of the original Christian teaching. So I think if one of the only 10 basic (central) commandments isn't kept and the organisation encourages (organises) it, one can really doubt about that organisation.

 

BTW: As I have seen that this forum is being used also as propaganda for books :wink: - anybody who is interested in the difference between Christianity and that specific organisation, would do good to read the novel "Anno Domini", written by Barnaby Williams.

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¦#133; Hm. ¦#133; There¦#146;s indeed a lot of similarity between partnerships and other social relationships. The same type of mind is creating both, I guess.

 

And Bodhicitta and Wisdom obviously aren¦#146;t as simply reachable as they seem at the beginning. A lot of multilevel work to reach firm ground, I guess.

 

Nice to have this forum. Thank you.

If I read between the lines - are you asking why we are discussing these matters under the subject of partnerships/relationships? :wink:

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But according to my knowledge of history, the Inquisition and Crusades weren't made by "a few" individuals, but by an organisation.
Since when an organisation is not composed of "individuals"! :)) And the above mentioned institutions which organised and 'blessed' the crusads and Inquisition wheren't composed of "few" but thousands of people who defined themselves as Christians, and where recognised as such by their head representative, the Pope! ://

So, try, and set! :mrgreen:

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In the above mentioned situation, I think what matters is what do we define as "Christians"?? From the point of view of the "Christic ideal", or from the Institutions which define themselves as Christians??

 

All the best, Gelong Shenphen

 

NB: Indeed, subject very far from "Partner relationship"... May be someone could start a topic on this matter?

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If I read between the lines - are you asking why we are discussing these matters under the subject of partnerships/relationships? :wink:

No, no. I really see the parallels. And ¦#150; as my self-reflection is quite dimmed ¦#150; I do am grateful for the mirror, for awareness of the patterns of my mind. !:! :wink: It was in fact quite subjective remark.

 

Best regards,

Khandro

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Yes, they are fun! But I have to add an old one: :oops: , because my last words I was more confusing then clear: with parallels I meant the WAY of communicating, not the content.

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