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#1 m_v

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:44 AM

One friend - who was a prananadi member - asked my opinion about prananadi, but I find it better to put it to open discussion, so that anybody can join with his/her questions, or share his/her experiences.

I would like to open this topic for those, who are/were involved in prananadi (www.prananadi.hu), are seeing some strange things happening there, and would like to know the truth about the sect, its dangers and consequences. Or people, who were abused or cheated in any form.
As me myself know little about its actual functioning, and I have luckily never been involved in any of their activities, I have no personal experience to complain about - though I am in touch with some people who are caught in its net.

So please put your questions, may it be of whatever nature, and discuss it.
Like: you would like to understand if ethics is important for any true spiritual realization, or it can go well without, too.
How energy-healing or healing itself works, who can actually heal an other person, what qualifications are required? What is the nature of self-healing, and our healing mind?
What means lineage and tradition, and how it manifests in prananadi? Why is an authentic leader important, and who is that?etc.




A prà¡nanà¡di témà¡t azoknak indà­tottam, akik abba valamilyen formà¡ban belebonyolà³dtak, és a szektà¡ban történÅ‘ fura dolgokat là¡tva kérdések merültek fel bennük, ezért hiteles forrà¡sbà³l szeretnék tudni az igazsà¡got a szektà¡rà³l, hogy az milyen veszélyeket rejt és hogy ezek milyen következményekkel jà¡rhatnak.
Én a szektà¡ba semmilyen szinten nem folytam bele, ezért szerencsére visszaélés à¡ldozata sem lettem, à­gy nincs személyes panaszom.
Tehà¡t à­rjatok, kérdezzetek bà¡rmit - prà³bà¡ljà¡tok meg angolul is, de ha nem megy vki lefordà­tja majd.

Kérdések, mint: Hogy működik az energià¡val valà³ gyà³gyà­tà¡s, vagy a gyà³gyà­tà¡s maga? Ki képes ténylegesen mà¡st gyà³gyà­tani, mivel kell ehhez rendelkeznie?
Mi az öngyà³gyà­tà¡s, vagy a gyà³gyà­tà³ tudat?
Meg szeretnéd érteni az etika fontossà¡gà¡t a tényleges spirituà¡lis megvalà³sà­tà¡sban, vagy hogy az etikussà¡g nélkül is jà³l működhet-e.
Mit jelent a leszà¡rmazà¡si vonal és a hagyomà¡ny, és ez miként jelenik meg a prananadin belül? Miért fontos a hiteles vezetÅ‘, és ki lehet az? stb.

#2 mandy

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 02:15 PM

I am truly astonished to hear that prana nadi is not simply a poorly working system but is actually dangerous.

Approximately 7 years ago I had a problem of loosing my voice for three months. I was seeking for all kind of medications, western just as well as alternatives… Along the line, I have met some people healing with prana nadi. One of them was a teacher (Földi Erzsi) and she offered me to help. Free of charge. I was seeing her for a couple of months. Though she did not cured me (neither did other practitioners fully) but I could talk again and it was the beginning of a long (and ever lasting journey) in body and soul, etc.

However, inspired by Erzsi I attended to the first two levels of prana nadi "courses". Was not really impressed by the "theoretical background" of it, it was poorly conceptualized and presented. However, something was still working as whenever I used my hands to cure a headache or stomach problem for myself, for my son or for friends who have never heard of prana nadi before, it always worked.

Actually it was a great lesson for my big intellectual ego that I could learn something from people who are less trained and less intellectual and less skilled as teachers than I was.

There is a huge and ever growing circle of 'prana nadi people' in Hungary. I meet them regularly during the Sziget Fesztival as they come to heal people in the Ambient Tent. Approx. 15 of them per day come to the Island and spend a whole day with giving energy to others. It seemed to be pleasing themselves as well as the people they are treating.

So my first question is: what is the problem with prana nadi?

#3 m_v

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 05:16 PM

huhh. I have checked some prananadi website. Too many things to complain about. Almost every sentence ask for refutation or corrigation.
Let me put this translated description of "prananadi", so that english speakers can also know what it is about...


Source: http://www.pranapadl.../NadiPadlas.htm

What is prananadi?


"Prananadi is the sanskrit term for life-energy channel, and is the name of a several thousand years old method for healing ourselves and others, which also brings a very intensive developement for personality. Beside that, it is of great help on other fields of life, and helpful for its applier and the surrounding too.
The method was brought to the West by a european scholar, after he went through a 16 years of training in Tibet. It became known in Hungary in 1992, where its transmission is widly spread since then.

By this method - with an extension of its educational material with radiaesthesical knowledge - anybody will be suitable to treat him/herself or others energetically. Prana is an all-pervading powerful energy, supports life-functions, and it is effective on all levels.


Its use brings harmony between our different mental levels. Without exception (independently from sexes, origin, religion, health, education etc), anybody is suited to learn this simple and loving system.


Prananadi is the science of healer Lamas. It can only be learned from qualified masters, you can be the holder and applier of the method only through initiation.

The prananadi initiation, received many thousand years ago, from living masters, has many transmissable levels.
After getting to know the first level you will be able to fill and heal the physical body with energy. The second level has mental effect, and you yourself will be able to transfer energy through time and space.The different levels bring intensive bodily and mental recovering, by opening the way to this ego-independent energy through our inner being.


Further levels make it possible to help our own organism, the surrounding, or anyone else who ask for help, on a higher level.

Its effect can result in intensive personality developement in a short run. You can be a conscious part of the energy which creates the world and you.
It is a great help for living and directing your life more consciously.
"

Actually, Mandy, you are right when you start doubting the credibility of the person, who has a very loose philosophical background and understanding. Because philosophy is nothing else but investigating the nature of phenomenas (including sickness), which eventually leads to the understanding of phenomenas (if done properly), and which understanding is the very basis of right cognition and nonharmful (but beneficial) functioning. The final result of such investigation of phenomenas is Emptiness, which is the only thing that can qualify anyone to be an effective healer or spiritual advisor - to my understanding. Those who have reached Emptiness should be quite well versed in philosophy, and should lead others also on the same path that enabled his/her higher realization, and of which path consists philosophy and strict ethics. No? So when we see such “teachers” whose philosophy is not well founded, but try to balance this shortcoming with mystical and blurred phrases, who are counting upon your emotions, or make you believe that you actually have not yet grown up to his/her high level, but are unable to talk logically of the path, then you have every reason to run away, because they have reached nothing, they are dabbler, and you will be taught by a dabbler if you stay.


As for the effectiveness of prananadi:
Buddhist philosophy states that samsara is kept working on the basis of belief. So if such system can work some way, it is solely because people believe in it, and not on the basis of full skill and understanding.


Besides many other things that arise in my mind reading prananadi sites, I would also like to know who are the authentic (“abroad”) teachers Petrezselyem J. and Földi E. are reffering to?
I doubt that there was even one realized Tibetan Lama, who would apporve this non-sense. If prananadi people claim so, why couldn’t they present at least one authentic Lama who would stand in their backgrund? And if no Lama gives his approval, I wonder in what manner could it be named Buddhist in any way, and on what basis are they using Buddhist symbols and practices, why are they talking about going for Refuge to the Three Jewels?????
Shenpen Rinpoche's opinion about prananadi here: http://www.dharmalin...?showtopic=1164

I think if people are interested in spiritual paths and realizations, and if they want to help effectively their beloved ones, they better find true Teachers, authentic Lamas, and not such foolish self-appointed “gurus”, who transmit nothing but false informations. Following the fools you are not only wasting your precious lifetime with learning rubbish, but also loosing the still present chance to learn from such living great Masters like His Holiness the Dalai Lama, or the many Rinpoches who are acting in the West for our benefit.
I noticed many people turn to new age movements because they promis easy progress and quick realizations. You think you spend 2-3 weekends in a course, and you will be able to heal…? These sects make you belive that you are actually not an ordinary being with many many limitations, but you are very developed spiritually. Then it can be a good reason for not facing your shortcomings, but start to train yourself on odd things instead of eliminating them, believing that due to your developed spirituality, you are marching toward enlightenment and spiritual powers without the least effort and loss of “blood”.

Finally I would put a quotation from His Holiness:
http://www.lamayeshe...=article&id=421
I feel the way he (Shakyamuni Buddha) demostrated how to become totally enlightened set a very good example for his followers, for this is the way in which we should pursue our own spiritual path. Purifying your own mind is not at all easy, it takes a lot of time and hard work. Therefore, if you choose to follow this teaching you need tremendous willpower and determination right from the start, accepting that there will be many, many obstacles, and resolving that despite all of them you will continue the practice. This kind of determination is very important. Sometimes, it may seem to us that although Buddha Shakyamuni attained enlightenment through great sacrifice and hard work, we his followers can easily attain Buddhahood without the hard work and difficulties that he underwent. So, I think that the Buddha's own story has something to tell us.

#4 Wangmo

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 11:52 PM

Let me add my own grain of salt, altough I am not able to read what is written in Hungarian - but I think this phenomenon is widely enough spread, under different names.

If we go back in history a bit, even in good old Europe there were schools of magic, mysteries etc. where one could learn all sorts of things hidden from the wider public. But there was always this small nuisance - not all were accepted, and usually it was years - or better, decades - of hard training and discipline before any achievement. I guess we can say the same about all such schools, Eastern, Western or any other.

But hard work = phew, not popular at all, right?
Yet, the attractive poisition of "Initiate" can bring lots of power, and - money. The only obstacle on the way to the desired result is the mentioned hard work. So some ingenious souls invented a new way to gain this nice position without the unpleasantly hard work - by presenting something "exotic" and claiming to have learned it in some place where people don't go so often to check: *India, *Tibet, *Solomon Islands, *some-place-never-heard-of*, the knowledge coming from *Lamas, *Angels, *Aliens, *Shamans etc.
The idea is that it is coming from a place far away, and from some beings no-one knows personally.
Then you add a good brand name and advertising. It is also good to use an existing name, so to say, an already established brand, but it must not be well-known to your target public. The words "prana" and "tantra" for example sound very good if one can put them in ...

Now, if you go shopping for eggs, there are clear standards - the size, quality and expiry date are clearly stated, more or less. This makes it hard to sell ice-cubes in a box and call them eggs, right? Not so with all these "magical" practices - there are no standards, no expiry dates, no sales inspectors, no nothing. So this is an ideal market niche to sell whatever comes around. And there are many "customers" looking for quick fixes for their problems.

And if people don't ask money, it doesn't mean this isn't selling - it can be simple natural exchange: for power, influence, personal satisfaction ...

But in fact, it is not so complicated to spot all these "schools" - you recognise them by how easy it is to achieve the level of a "master" - one weekend, two weekends, one month ...

And I don't say that what these practitioners are doing doesn't work - it may, or may not. But it is like going to have heart surgery done by someone who started the first year of medical faculty ... You never know in what shape you will come out. :dontknow:
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. (Bruce Lee)

#5 Ani.Chödrön

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 03:47 PM

However, something was still working as whenever I used my hands to cure a headache or stomach problem for myself, for my son or for friends who have never heard of prana nadi before, it always worked.

People often ask, How could it be wrong, if it works? Or, they say that they don't need intellectual ellaborations, because they can feel the energy, because feelings go deeper than the concepts, because the concepts are just an obstacle to our deeper senses of reality etc.
I have not overcome conceptual reality, and i am no expert on the topic, but there are some points that i find important:

  • One's karmic background can give someone certain abilities; yet, this abilities can be lost, if not properly nourished.
  • More important: whatever abilities one has, they are impure and linked to one's ego, unless one has realized Emptiness. What is the result of such help then? Blind leading blind?
  • Our perception of the effects is also questionable, as mentioned. How much are we able to perceive the showers of the karmic streams that are taking place all the time? If we see, for example, that one feels better after our help, can we be really sure that we did not cause also some invisible unbalances or misconceptions that will develop later into harmful results? Feelings and limited perception are not reliable.
  • I agree that the intellectual ground is needed - it provides clear orientation, the variety of means, it can limit our ego, because it can be checked... But, how to implement the theory into practice, how to help each person according to her own needs, can be learned only from a genuine Guide, who has become the Path.
I am always happy to see the wish for helping the others that is usually driving people to the new age seminars and workshops. Yet, there are centuries old traditions, thoroughly tested, many times, provenly effective in their help, not just physical, but also helping the mind to reach its ultimate potentials; and there are schools which do not have these qualities and can mislead, harming the persons involved. It is always hard to see good people going in the wrong direction, seeing that their potentials could be used in a better way. But the choice is made by the person herself, and the only thing that we can do is to inform, to stand by them, whatever takes place, and to become qualified guides ourselves.

#6 m_v

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 05:49 PM

Some further details for english language users.

For random readers: the text below presents NON-BUDDHIST VIEWS, IT IS TO BE SUPERVISED, CRITICISED, DISCUSSED from the Dharma point of view, and NOT for believing them!!!

source: http://www.prananadi.hu/rein.html

"About Prananadi reincarnation

How does Prananadi reincarnation technics (more common name: journey or travel assistance) relate to prananadi healing technics?

When we treat a patient with Nadi, we open the blocks that were creating the sickness, through the energy which flows through our body or is transferred from distance. These blocks contain the history of the root reasons of sickness or mental problem (the pictures of these events). Most of the time these blocks will be removed during the treatment. In case of more heavy illnesses, mental problems, it happens sometimes, that due to the Nadi treatment the state of the patient improves well in the beginning, but after it stops and stagnates. These times the consciousness of the patient should be heightened, he/she should look upon the reason of the sickness so that she/he will be able to help the process of self-healing. This is when Masters say, that „You should make its journey”.

The 2 main participants of the journey or travel assistance are the traveller, who wants to find the reasons of his problems, and the travel-assistant, who by applying the method helps the traveller to come back to the roots. The roots of the sicknesses, mental torments in the earlier periods of the present life, can be traced back to birth and the moment of conception, and can be also found in previous lives.
The patient is in a kind of energetically supported, altered state of mind during the journey. He is able to remember everything that was experienced during the journey. He is able to travel only to such lives, to experience such events, what he is ready to solve.

The task of the travel assistant is guiding and helping the traveller during his journey, and to assist in putting the traveller in the unsolved, painful events of this life or previous lives, and by this solving these pains and sufferings. It is because if we watch a painful event exactly the way as it happened, it will not have influnce on us anymore, since we already know everything about it. Opening the blocks can be followed by crying or laugh during the journey.
The traveler experiences the cycle of birth and death, that he goes on living even after the death with full consciousness, and that there is a subtle energy-body belonging to his mind, which stores the memory of every previous lives, including mental traumas. The traveler can also look upon the decisions, which he made many hundred or thousand years ago, and since they were not reconsidered by him, or were not revoked, are influencing the present life too.
During the journey the traveller is able to identify the people from previous lifes and present life, that way he will be able to understand what is the karmik task that binds them together.
The practice of forgiving is also very important by the end of the journey, no matter if it is about ourselves or about others, as revengeful feelings and guilt also can keep u sin the karmic chain.

The point of the journey is thus not looking in the distant past, but by solving the upmerging (?) previous lives coming more back to present.

On the contrary of the prevailing thoughts on death in western culture, in Tibetan culture it is understood, that death that is passed through in conscious state of mind (or re-lived during the journey) helps the soul to recover, and also helps its further journey. (See: Sogyal Rinpoche: Tibetan book of life and death).

The levels of prananadi reincarnation:
1. level: (only after Nadi 2 level)
the pupil learns the prananadi method, by wich he will be able to guide his patient into the earlier events of this or previous life/lives. A very important characteristic of the method is that a symbol helps and protects the traveller and the assistant during the journey.
2. level: (about Nadi level 3) The method of assisting simplifies, and the patient will be able to enter such events, what he was unable to face on level 1.
3. level: (about Nadi level 5) Completing the nadilevels (in brackets), due to the initiations, self-healings, meditations, the energy level reached during the journey, and the purification of the many blocks, the pupil will be able to guide himself back to previous lives. Besides, he will get great possibilities to help the patients’ problems.
Time:

One journey takes app. 2-3 hours. All 3 reincarnation courses take 2 days".


#7 LamaShenphen

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 06:23 PM

"Prananadi" has nothing to do with traditional Buddhism, and neither from Tibet. It is a made-up system created by a man in search of fame.

Whenever people think it "works", actually either they are delusional (ie. not crazy, but wiling so much to see something that they create it), or they have some abilities which they discover at that time. Or both. But it's not because of any power contained in this "method". Of course, if you take one thousand people, some will have/do have some inner strength, power, which can be directed at healing or else.
But without the right understanding and motivation, this type of healing is shallow.

Ironically enough, I was contacted by a "master of the last degree" of this system, who discovered after several years that it was a big fraud. He showed me all the documents they are using. It contains lot of things form Tibetan Buddhism, but used in wrong way, disconnected from their real meaning, and some things are really silly. An example: the "guru" added a new level of "initiation" using "secret mudras"... when you look at these "secret mudras", they are in fact the common offering mudras ie. gestures you do to represent symbolically the eight offerings. Sooo secret! :0022:

Not everyone has the capacity to become healer. It is a fraud to claim that if you pay for some course, you will surely get this and that. In the same way that it's not because you do a three years retreat, for example, that you will become a wise spiritual guide! How could it be automatic? It's in contradiction with a correct understanding of karma.
As regarding the previous life, this is also very childish. This sect is imply playing with the desperate wishes of the naive people...

You are looking for a spiritual path? Then seek for an authentic and qualified Lama, teaching and applying correctly the Words of the Buddhas. It might sometime look less "exciting" than what these charlatans are making you believe, but it is much more serious, and will lead you somewhere. Eventually to Enlightenment.
Prananadi will empty your pocket-money and your mind. At the least you will lose time; eventually you will have some "spicy pseudo-spiritual" experiences; mostly you will boost your ego; and for sure you won't reach any Realization, let aside Liberation or Enlightenment.

Sorry for all those who believe in this. I have met very nice people engaged into prananadi; truly seeking a spiritual path, kind hearted, etc... But misled. And sometime so much that they can't see it anymore, and would accuse me of wrong understanding because I'm telling them what I think truly about this sect. Some people from prananadi did/do attend my teaching with the only goal to attack me "energetically". Yes, yes :) They sit on front of me, and stare at me the whole teaching, thinking their "mind energy" or whatever will destabilise me, or I don't know, kill me, convert me, whatever...

It is hard to admit we have made a wrong step, that we have been tricked. But the sooner you will open your eyes and join a true spiritual, traditional, authentic Path, the better for you.
And once you understand that, it is after all may be not such a bad experience, you might have learned something about yourself, your capacities, and you will become more objective in your search for an authentic Teacher, in a traditional community.
Lama Shenpen Rinpoche
---
"For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world." (Arya Shantideva)

#8 m_v

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:35 PM

Rinpoche's answer in Hungarian:
RINPOCSE VàLASZA MAGYARUL


A prananadinak semmi köze a hagyomà¡nyos buddhizmushoz, és TibetbÅ‘l sem szà¡rmazik. Ez egy hà­rnévre và¡gyà³ ember à¡ltal összetà¡kolt rendszer.
Bà¡rmikor, amikor az emberek azt gondoljà¡k, hogy “működik”, akkor valà³jà¡ban vagy érzékcsalà³dà¡suk van (vagyis nem Å‘rültek, hanem annyira là¡tni akarnak valamit, hogy megteremtik azt), vagy pedig rendelkeznek bizonyos képességekkel, amiket akkor fedeznek fel. Vagy mindkettÅ‘. De nem azért, mert bà¡rmiféle erÅ‘ lenne a “mà³dszerben”. Természetesen ezer emberbÅ‘l lesznek olyanok, akik rendelkeznek/fognak rendelkezni némi belsÅ‘ tartà¡ssal, erÅ‘vel, ami gyà³gyà­tà¡sba vagy mà¡s egyéb dologba irà¡nyà­thatà³.
Azonban a helyes megértés és motivà¡cià³ nélkül sekélyes ez a gyà³gyà­tà¡s.
Ironikus mà³don, kapcsolatba lépett velem a rendszer egy “legmagasabb fokozatຠmestere”, aki sok év elteltével rà¡jött, hogy egy nagy csalà¡s. Megmutatta az összes dokumentumot amit hasznà¡lnak. Sokmindent tartalmaz a tibeti buddhizmusbà³l, csak épp rosszul felhasznà¡lva, megfosztva az eredeti jelentéstÅ‘l, és néhà¡ny dolog pedig egészen ostoba benne. Egy példa: a “guru” hozzà¡tett egy àºj “beavatà¡si” szintet, titkos mudrà¡kkal… E “titkos mudrà¡kat” megnézve kiderül, hogy valà³jà¡ban ezek a megszokott felajà¡nlà¡si mudrà¡k, vagyis azok a kéztartà¡sok, amik a nyolc felajà¡nlà¡st reprezentà¡ljà¡k. Nagyon titkosak! :0022:
Nem mindenkinek van képessége arra, hogy gyà³gyà­tà³và¡ và¡ljon. Ha azt à¡llà­tjà¡k, hogy néhà¡ny fizetett kurzusért biztosan szert teszel erre, az à¡tverés. Ugyanàºgy, mint ahogyan példà¡ul nem egy hà¡roméves elvonulà¡s miatt leszel bölcs spirituà¡lis vezetÅ‘! Hogy történhetne ez automatikusan? Ez szembenà¡ll a karma helyes értelmezésével. Ami pedig az elÅ‘zÅ‘ életeket illeti, az szintén elég gyerekes… Ez a szekta egyszerűen szà³rakozik a naiv emberek reménytelen kà­và¡nsà¡gaival.
Spirituà¡lis utat keresel? Akkor keress hiteles és képzett Là¡mà¡t, aki a Buddhà¡k szavait helyesen tanà­tja és alkalmazza. Esetenként ez talà¡n kevésbé tűnik „izgalmasnak”, mint amit elhitetnek veled ezek a sarlatà¡nok, viszont sokkal komolyabb, és el is juttat téged valahova. VégsÅ‘soron a Megvilà¡gosodà¡shoz.
A prananadi kiürà­ti a pénztà¡rcà¡dat és a tudatodat is. De legkevesebb, hogy idÅ‘t veszà­tesz; vagy legfeljebb lesz néhà¡ny „pikà¡ns à¡l-spirituà¡lis” tapasztalatod; de többnyire az egà³dat fàºjod fel, és semmi esetre sem fogsz elérni semmiféle Megvalà³sà­tà¡st, hà¡tmég Megszabadulà¡st vagy Megvilà¡gosodà¡st.

Sajnà¡lom azokat, akik hisznek ebben. Talà¡lkoztam kedves emberekkel, akik prà¡nanà¡dival foglalkoztak, Å‘szintén spirituà¡lis ösvényt keresve, akik jà³szà­vűek stb… De félrevezetettek. És néha olyannyira, hogy mà¡r képtelenek ezt là¡tni, és engem hibà¡ztatnà¡nak, hogy nem értem, csak mert megmondom nekik amit tényleg gondolok errÅ‘l a szektà¡rà³l. A prà¡nanà¡dità³l van néhà¡ny ember, akik eljà¡rtak/eljà¡rnak a tanà­tà¡saimra egyedül csak azzal a céllal, hogy „energetikailag” tà¡madjanak. Igen, igen :) Leülnek velem szemben, és az egész tanà­tà¡s alatt bà¡mulnak, azt gondolvà¡n, hogy a „tudati energià¡juk” vagy akà¡rmi destabilizà¡lhat majd engem, vagy mit tudom én, majd megöl, megtérà­t, akà¡rmi…

Nehéz belà¡tni, hogy hibà¡s lépést tettünk, hogy becsaptak bennünket. De minél elÅ‘bb nyitod ki a szemed és csatlakozol egy valà³di spirituà¡lis, hagyomà¡nyos, hiteles Ösvényhez, annà¡l jobban jà¡rsz.
És ha mà¡r megértetted ezt, akkor végül is talà¡n nem volt olyan rossz tapasztalat, talà¡n tanultà¡l valamit magadrà³l, a képességeidrÅ‘l, és objektà­vabbà¡ và¡lsz majd a hiteles Tanà­tà³nak egy hagyomà¡nyos közösségben valà³ keresése sorà¡n.

#9 Guest_lodreu_*

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 09:53 PM

Dear all,

It seems to follow the ususal scheme of pyramidal cults.
- First you have to find/invent a mystical/exotic origin. Nowadays Tibetan Buddhism is in, so it will come from there. Of course it has to come from monasteries and highly qualified lamas.
- Show that you are an insider by wearing similar type of clothing as they do.
- Then you create a system not too complicated, which gives the feeling to people that they are involved in something special. For this we have 'initiations'. No need to do anything serious, what people want is something easy which creates good feeling with little efforts. Anyway who will make the effort to check will never stay or even enter this system.
- Hook people and make the system self sustainable, this way they will not accept that they are misleaded and will bring newcomers as a way to reinforce their feeling that they are on the right path.
- Of course to keep control create new levels or special initiations that you are the only one to give, and keep some level accessible only through yourself.
- When you will start to be critized too much, find new sources to justify the authenticity. For this organize travels to Nepal/Idia, where you can go to monasteries where nobody will understand what you are doing, and where you can use the barrier of the langage to fool everybody. There you can invest a part of your incomes to be welcomed and treated in a way which is normal in this culture, but will make you look important in the eyes of others.
- Eventually as your business becomes more serious and as you start to understand better who is a bit famous in Buddhism, ask private appointments with some teachers, make offerings and take a picture with them. This way you can always bring some credit to yourself and even pretend you received some special teachings and initiations.

Important point:
- Do not forget to organize your travels well to bring a group of people with you. This way they will self convince themselves and you will not even have to bother making your own advertising, they will do it for you back home.
- Be shameless, your business is back home, where all the Tibetans who laughed at the stupid way you dressed and you behave are not living. There you will be able to pretend as much as you like.

This way we can see groups of Hungarian wearing the monks robes taking group pictures in airports, the leader of the group wearing the nagkpa clothing (he made some improvements, some years ago he didn't know which side of the lower robe had to be in front or on the side :0022: ), and of course some famous Lamas on the pictures. Kopan monastery was not left aside and Lama Lhundrup now became a part of the promotion material.

Shame, shame, shame....

Best regards,
Lodreu.

#10 m_v

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 12:55 PM

Some people from prananadi did/do attend my teaching with the only goal to attack me "energetically". Yes, yes :) They sit on front of me, and stare at me the whole teaching, thinking their "mind energy" or whatever will destabilise me, or I don't know, kill me, convert me, whatever...

A prà¡nanà¡dità³l van néhà¡ny ember, akik eljà¡rtak/eljà¡rnak a tanà­tà¡saimra egyedül csak azzal a céllal, hogy „energetikailag” tà¡madjanak. Igen, igen :) Leülnek velem szemben, és az egész tanà­tà¡s alatt bà¡mulnak, azt gondolvà¡n, hogy a „tudati energià¡juk” vagy akà¡rmi destabilizà¡lhat majd engem, vagy mit tudom én, majd megöl, megtérà­t, akà¡rmi…


It is a pity that the "great masters" of prananadi have not a thorough understanding of karma to teach.... If they had, they would be aware of the consequences of such acts, which harm only the ignorants, i.e. those who commit such negativity and those who encourage them. Anyhow life definitely has a lesson to teach them on the cost of their and such followers' skin. I wonder what they have learned from Buddhism if even the very fundamental focus on the law of karma has not been understood....


Kà¡r, hogy a prananadi "nagy mestereinek" a karma működésével kapcsolatos ismeretei nem valami alaposak, hogy azt rendesen tanà­thassà¡k is... Ha a karma lényegét pontosan értenék, akkor tudatà¡ban lennének az ilyen tettek következményeinek, melyek csak a tudatlanoknak à¡rthatnak, vagyis azoknak, akik ilyen negatività¡sokat elkövetnek, és azoknak, akik bà¡torà­tjà¡k Å‘ket. Mindenesetre az élet tartogat szà¡mukra egy leckét, amit sajà¡t bÅ‘rükön fognak megtanulni Å‘k és a követÅ‘ik. Kà­và¡ncsi vagyok, hogy mit tanultak a buddhizmusbà³l, ha még az olyan leghangsàºlyosabb elemeket, mint a karma törvénye sem értették meg igazà¡n.

#11 m_v

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:39 PM

Here is a desperate try from Petrezselyem Jà³zsef, the head of prananadi, to protect his business.
Some grammatical problems of the translation (not all, as some are just literal adherences to the original text) are due to my poor english, but textual inconsistency is due to the questionable thoughts and motivations of the author...

The text is from pranandi news here: http://www.prananadi.hu/hirek.asp
It meant to be a letter for followers, who - by taking seriously themselves and the non-sense the system teaches - were initiative in exploring further "hidden teachings" the way their "teacher" did - i.e. as easy as he did: from the well of their strange imagination, and this way trying to take a market share away from the "master"; and those, who even went "over there" (abroad, i.e. Tibet, Nepal, India) searching for "teachings" from the non-existent prananadi "abroad" teachers, and found it strange that in Tibet no monk has any idea what they were saying with this prananadi thing. What a shocking experience! This definitely calls for clarification from Petrezselyem Jà³zsef…
What is obvious form the letter, that this man doesnt want anybody to encroach on his and henchmen's business.
Enjoy your further analysis...


àme Petrezselyem Jà³zsef, a prananadi vezetÅ‘jének egy kétségbeesett kà­sérlete, hogy üzletét megvédje.
A nyelvtani hibà¡k a fordà­tà¡sban az én szegényes angolomnak köszönhetÅ‘ek, a szöveg furcsasà¡gai viszont a szerzÅ‘ vitathatà³ gondolatainak és motà­và¡cià³inak.
A szöveg forrà¡sa: http://www.prananadi.hu/hirek.asp
Ez egy levél olyan követÅ‘k szà¡mà¡ra, akik - önmagukat és a rendszer à¡ltal tanà­tott zagyvasà¡got komolyan vették - és a tanà¡rukhoz hasonlà³an tovà¡bbi rejtett tanà­tà¡sokat kezdtek felfedezni, olyan könnyűszerrel, ahogyan a tanà­tà³ is tette: fura képzeletük bugyraibà³l elÅ‘kotorvà¡n, ezà¡ltal teret követelve maguknak a prananadi piacà¡n. Szà³l azoknak is, akik még „ki” is mentek (azaz Tibetbe, Indià¡ba vagy Nepà¡lba), a nemlétezÅ‘ prananadis „kinti” tanà¡roktà³l tovà¡bbi tanà­tà¡sok utà¡n kutatva - és furà¡n érezték magukat, amikor Tibetben egy szerzetesnek sem volt sejtelme, hogy a prananadi meg mifà¡n terem. Milyen megrà¡zà³ tapasztalat! Ezt mindenképp tisztà¡znia kellett Petrezselyem Jà³zsefnek…
Ami a levélbÅ‘l vilà¡gosan levehetÅ‘, hogy ez az ember nem szeretné, ha bà¡rki belepiszkà­tana az Å‘ és kollegà¡i bizniszébe.
Tovà¡bbi hasznos elemzést kà­và¡nok…




"03.16.2006
Last weeks I received news that some people receive prananadi initiations in meditation, dream, and they wish to teach them.

I would like to tell you, and clarify, shed a light on a few things in relation to this. So to say, to put it on its right place!

Transmission of teachings has a strict order! And it is possible only in the presence of a living master, and through personal contact, touch. The transmission of teaching is possible through a living lineage, i.e. living teachers!
It is not a unique characteristics, since transmissions and blessings are also part of the Buddhist teachings. Here too, the blessing or the transmission is done with hand, or with other consecrated object, i.e. through touching.
Some of you might have read such Buddhist books, biographies, in wich it is mentioned indeed, that there are some, who received meditations, teachings, or have found mentally hidden teachings.
These all are really existing, but those were enlightened masters, who received, found them, and they had many decades of retreat from the world!
In Hungary there are no such enlightened masters in the lineage. The one who states so, is tricked by his ego.
At the time the MASTER asked for the possibility of transmitting the a teachings, he has received a special preparation for the european transmission. It was important, because Tibetans found it important - knowing the way of thinking, life of european people. Comparing to oriental people - europeans spend their days with work, studying, and free time activities, in a tensed way of life. Everybody keeps running, hurry, their life is stressful - so to say. There is no time for real quietness. Everybody is fighting with the monster of ego, even prananadi people!
Those, living in the monasteries, spend the bigger part of their days with hours of meditation and other practices. Retreat meditations are also important. Mind can be calmed down only this way, ego can be overcame only this way. Over there, they are also learning the correct way of meditation, and they practice it constantly.
How far we are from the 3 years, 3 months 3 days retreat meditation! Dont think that it is something special and there are only few who practice it! This is an everyday practice, that is in relation with learning and practicing.
Practicing meditation is very important for us too. Practicing the special meditations of higher levels, purifying ourselves can help overcoming our ego. But everything has rules.
Many believes, that since they have received the teachings of the higher level, now they have capacity for many things. But if there is no specific meditation, only their ego will grow, and this will be obvious - sadly.
We have received tasks, that we dont finish, so our dark side will grow. Informations that are coming through this side, are creations of the shadow-side of our mind, which is called ego! But without the day to day, frequent practices, these meditations are mistaken! Are the result of the ego. So they give you fake imaginations. In such times one might think, that he has received symbols or initiation. But as I said, it is the tricky play of the ego!

For transmitting the european teaching there is a special team over there, who can transmit and actually transmit the teachings only for the students of the Master, this is why they over there are not receiving anybody for teachings. If you hear anybody saying, that somebody has received prananadi teachings over there, when I was actually not present, or when I dont announce it publicly, then you must know, that it is not true.
We have received the 14th healing level last year, which is the highest transmitted level in europe and in the west, at the moment.
In Europe and west, up to now, the 8th level is transmitted. I teach this the third year, I and my colleagues didn’t teach any level higher from this. Though I know, that many would like to go abroad, and receive teachings out of turn, but this is not possible. The teachers abroad are watching such trials with a smile on their face, because in their mind it means, that regarding humility, acceptance and respect for the teacher, these students are very far from receiving teachings, therefore they will not be invited for teachings in the future neither.
Important! Don’t mix intuition with the teachings! Everybody have that. There are those who use it, and those who don’t! But this is also only an information coming through or clouds, realized by or mental blocks. What can be a guideline in our own life, if they reach us in the clearest form possible, after many practices. But it can throw us back many times, if we let ourselves be cheated by the ego.
Over there, the authority and respect of the master is fully natural. They understand and feel, that the master is not ostentatious, and sees the mental processes of the student from a much higher state and much clearer. Sadly, it often happens in Europe, that the student after completing a few courses, is already convinced, that he knows more, or at least as much as the teacher himself. Here everybody is in an easy situation, because his master is close to him. He would be able to ask for his advice and the advice would be obeyed. The master sees the student always from outside. Over there (abroad), if we get an advice, it never occurs in our mind that we dont obey it! In Europe, the students ask for advice just to get an option, and they decide on their own afterward. What else is it if not ego?
If you meet such disciples, who suit the above description, don’t be angry with them, and you shouldn’t harm them, but you know…
Jesus only had 12 disciples, and there was a Judas among them, but he forgived him.
The pope Paul VI. Also visited his assassin in the prison, and offered his forgiving.
We also should practice forgiving with them.

With prananadi hug: Petrezselyem Jà³zsef
"

#12 Secret

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:49 AM

A leà­rtak, kimerà­tik a lejà¡ratà¡s és becsületsértés fogalmà¡t.
Én személy szerint voltam kint egy tanà­tà³nà¡l, aki ismeri a Prà¡nanadit, amit valà³jà¡ban nem à­gy hà­vnak, ez egy adott név Magyarorszà¡gon, nekem elmondta a mesterem az eredeti nevet.
Egy betegség miatt mentem ki, amikor elmentem arra a helyre ahovà¡ küldött, ott foglalkoztak velem, segà­tettek, meggyà³gyultam.
Nem értem miért nyilatkoztok olyan dolgokat ti Buddhistà¡k, hogy ez nem létezÅ‘. A Buddhizmus nem azt tanà­tja, hogy ne itélkezz? minden érzÅ‘ lényt szeretünk, kifejlesztük magunkban a szeretÅ‘ eggyüttérzést?
Azért nem kellene mocskolà³dni, mert valamit nem is ismersz.
Aki az életét köszönheti neki, annak mondjà¡tok.
Én eddig Buddhistà¡nak tartottam magam, de ezek utà¡n mà¡r nem tudom mit gondoljak.
Szégyen, hogy egy Buddhista topikon megjelenik ilyen.

#13 m_v

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 12:40 PM

Én személy szerint voltam kint egy tanà­tà³nà¡l, aki ismeri a Prà¡nanadit, amit valà³jà¡ban nem à­gy hà­vnak, ez egy adott név Magyarorszà¡gon, nekem elmondta a mesterem az eredeti nevet.
Egy betegség miatt mentem ki, amikor elmentem arra a helyre ahovà¡ küldött, ott foglalkoztak velem, segà­tettek, meggyà³gyultam.
Nem értem miért nyilatkoztok olyan dolgokat ti Buddhistà¡k, hogy ez nem létezÅ‘. A Buddhizmus nem azt tanà­tja, hogy ne itélkezz? minden érzÅ‘ lényt szeretünk, kifejlesztük magunkban a szeretÅ‘ eggyüttérzést?
Azért nem kellene mocskolà³dni, mert valamit nem is ismersz.
Aki az életét köszönheti neki, annak mondjà¡tok.
Én eddig Buddhistà¡nak tartottam magam, de ezek utà¡n mà¡r nem tudom mit gondoljak.
Szégyen, hogy egy Buddhista topikon megjelenik ilyen.

Translation
What is written here fully covers the notion of discrediting and defamation.
I personally was over there at a teacher, who knows about prananadi, which is actually called there differently, this is a given name in Hungary, and my master told me the original name.
I went abroad because of a sickness, when I visited that place where he sent me. They treated me there, helped me, and I recovered.
I dont understand why do you Buddhist people say things that it is not existing. Buddhism doesnt teach to not judge? We love all sentient beings, we develope loving compassion?
You shouldnt swear at things, just because you dont know them.
Tell this to those who can thank their life to it.
I considered myself a Buddhist, but after now, I dont know what to think.
it is a shame, that on a Buddhist topic such thing can appear.




Kedves Titokzatos, lefordà­tottam a panaszod, hà¡là¡s vagyok, hogy tömören fogalmaztà¡l. Ha tovà¡bbra is lesznek hozzà¡szà³là¡said, kérlek tartsd meg e jà³ szokà¡sod, hogy le lehessen fordà­tani rövid idÅ‘n belül + lényeges dolgokra szorà­tkozzà¡l, különben a fordà­tà¡s szelektà­v lesz. :)
Mellesleg örülök, hogy beszà¡lltà¡l a pà¡rbeszédbe. Mocskolà³dà¡srà³l szà³ sincs, csak azt szeretnénk, ha az emberek felhagynà¡nak a naività¡sukkal.

Dear Secret, I translated your complaint. I feel grateful that your viewpoint was brief enough. If you are planning to post further comments, please keep this good habit, so that it can be translated in short time + confine yourself to important matters, otherwise its translation will be selective. :) By the way, I am glad that you joined to this discussion. This line is far from cursing prananadi people, we only want people to wake up from their naivity.

#14 LamaShenphen

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:20 PM

What is written here fully covers the notion of discrediting and defamation. I personally was over there at a teacher, who knows about prananadi, which is actually called there differently, this is a given name in Hungary, and my master told me the original name. I went abroad because of a sickness, when I visited that place where he sent me. They treated me there, helped me, and I recovered. I dont understand why do you Buddhist people say things that it is not existing. Buddhism doesnt teach to not judge? We love all sentient beings, we develope loving compassion? You shouldnt swear at things, just because you dont know them. Tell this to those who can thank their life to it. I considered myself a Buddhist, but after now, I dont know what to think. it is a shame, that on a Buddhist topic such thing can appear.

It is very classical that as soon as we say the truth, people claim at slander, gossip, etc... And usually not displaying their name.
But the truth doesn't stand for slander. I'm asking you to prove that what has been written here is false. And I am asking you to prove me that "prananadi" exists in traditional Texts from Tibet!

It is an assumption that we don't know what prananadi is. And a false one. Furthermore, we do know Tibetan Buddhism, what is contains traditionally and what it doesn't.

As a Buddhist, you took the oath not to worship any false teachers, and non-Enlightened Beings. Your objects of Refuge are the Three-Jewels, and only them. You shall not follow as truth something which goes aside or in contradiction with Dharma.

You speak about compassion? May be it IS by Compassion that we do spend some time answering questions about prananadi, because -after all- it is not us who are following a deviated path!
You speak about not to judge? In the Mahayana we have a vow to correct when mistakes about Dharma have been committed. To correct isn't a judgment, isn't for our own benefit. It is to avoid that naive people get caught into sects, and to protect Dharma from degeneration.

I am not "anti-prananadi", I am "pro-tradition", in the sense that I wish people to benefit from Paths which have proven to lead to Peace, to Liberation, to Enlightenment.

In correct Buddha Dharma, you have all practices you need to develop your mind, and walk gradually towards Enlightenment. All that needed to be known has been taught by the Buddhas. No need of any "new-age" movement mimicking Buddhism. Why to create something when the Buddha already taught all that is needed for our spiritual Path? Who can claim to be better than the Buddha to do that??
If you practice well, and if you have created the causes for, you will get Realization and possibilities (siddhis) to help the others. There is no need to run frantically after powers, especially those who can quickly turn your mind and re-inforce the ego... while the point of the Dharma is at the opposite direction.


I receive patients as a healer since 25 years. Many times people ask me what is the name of my method! I could start a whole explanation about how I started to master this and that, and discovered this practices, that method, very secret, and for much money I can teach them.
No. My method is Dharma. My practice is Medicine Buddha. My motivation is Bodhicitta. This contain already all what is needed.
Further than providing a certain help trying to heal bodies, Dharma efficiently works on the mind. First helping the mind of the practitioner, then patients. Because a blind can't show the Path to other blinds...

I understand that people like to dream and fantasise. But Buddhism is very clear and humble on the matter of "powers" which can easily disturb the mind and inflate the ego. And we do not levitate (everyday at least ;)), we do not materialise flowers (what for anyhow), we do not tell you that after paying a certain sum of money you will be climbing on scale of level or rank, where you will see all your past lives, do astral projections, and become a wonderful healer!
So, frustrated people are looking somewhere else. Where someone wanted to get fame and money, along with some other privileges upon his "disciples", someone who has the pride to pretend "discovering" or "bringing to the west" the best and most profound method, quick (and eventually expensive too, hey! All has a price in our modern society!).
But these are just illusions, fake, not authentic and therefore leading to the development of your ego and pride instead of walking towards Peace and Enlightenment.

Now, I'm sorry and sad if you can't understand the above...
Lama Shenpen Rinpoche
---
"For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world." (Arya Shantideva)

#15 m_v

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:09 PM

A leà­rtak, kimerà­tik a lejà¡ratà¡s és becsületsértés fogalmà¡t.
Én személy szerint voltam kint egy tanà­tà³nà¡l, aki ismeri a Prà¡nanadit, amit valà³jà¡ban nem à­gy hà­vnak, ez egy adott név Magyarorszà¡gon, nekem elmondta a mesterem az eredeti nevet.
Egy betegség miatt mentem ki, amikor elmentem arra a helyre ahovà¡ küldött, ott foglalkoztak velem, segà­tettek, meggyà³gyultam.
Nem értem miért nyilatkoztok olyan dolgokat ti Buddhistà¡k, hogy ez nem létezÅ‘. A Buddhizmus nem azt tanà­tja, hogy ne itélkezz? minden érzÅ‘ lényt szeretünk, kifejlesztük magunkban a szeretÅ‘ eggyüttérzést?
Azért nem kellene mocskolà³dni, mert valamit nem is ismersz.
Aki az életét köszönheti neki, annak mondjà¡tok.
Én eddig Buddhistà¡nak tartottam magam, de ezek utà¡n mà¡r nem tudom mit gondoljak.
Szégyen, hogy egy Buddhista topikon megjelenik ilyen.



What is written here fully covers the notion of discrediting and defamation. I personally was over there at a teacher, who knows about prananadi, which is actually called there differently, this is a given name in Hungary, and my master told me the original name. I went abroad because of a sickness, when I visited that place where he sent me. They treated me there, helped me, and I recovered. I dont understand why do you Buddhist people say things that it is not existing. Buddhism doesnt teach to not judge? We love all sentient beings, we develope loving compassion? You shouldnt swear at things, just because you dont know them. Tell this to those who can thank their life to it. I considered myself a Buddhist, but after now, I dont know what to think. it is a shame, that on a Buddhist topic such thing can appear.



Rinpoche's answer in Hungarian:
RINPOCHE VàLASZA MAGYARUL:


Klasszikus eset, hogy amint megmondjuk az igazat valamirÅ‘l, az emberek becsületsértésrÅ‘l, rà¡galmazà¡srà³l stb. kezdenek beszélni. A nevüket à¡ltalà¡ban elhallgatva. Viszont ami igaz, az nem rà¡galom. Megkérlek tehà¡t, hogy bizonyà­tsd be, hogy az itt leà­rtak hamisak. És kérlek azt is bizonyà­tsd, hogy a „prananadi” létezik hagyomà¡nyos tibeti Iratokban!

Az csak feltételezés, hogy ne tudnà¡nk, mi az a „prananadi”. Rà¡adà¡sul hamis feltételezés. Tovà¡bbà¡, mi ismerjük a tibeti buddhizmust, tudjuk, hogy mi szerepel benne és mi nem.

Buddhistaként fogadalmat tettél, hogy nem tisztelsz hamis tanà­tà³kat és nem-megvilà¡gosodott lényeket. A Menedéked tà¡rgya a Hà¡rom Drà¡gasà¡g, és csakis ez. Nem kéne azt igazként követned, ami eltér, vagy szembenà¡ll a Dharmà¡val.

EgyüttérzésrÅ‘l beszélsz? Talà¡n pont együttérzésbÅ‘l tesszük, hogy idÅ‘t szà¡nunk a prananadival kapcsolatos kérdések megvà¡laszolà¡sà¡ra - elvégre nem mi vagyunk azok, akik ferde ösvényt követnek!
Nem-à­télkezésrÅ‘l beszélsz? A Mahà¡jà¡nà¡ban fogadalmunk van arra, hogy a Dharmà¡val kapcsolatos hibà¡kat kijavà­tsuk. A helyesbà­tés nem à­télkezés, nem sajà¡t magunk érdekében tesszük. Hanem azért, hogy naà­v emberek ne essenek szektà¡kba, illetve, hogy védjük a Dharmà¡t a degenerà¡cià³tà³l.

Én nem „prananadi ellenes” vagyok, hanem „hagyomà¡nypà¡rti”, abban az értelemben, hogy szeretném, ha az emberek tanulnà¡nak az olyan ÖsvényekbÅ‘l, melyek bizonyà­tottan Békéhez, Megszabadulà¡shoz, Megvilà¡gosodà¡shoz vezetnek.
A helyes Buddha Dharmà¡ban rendelkezésedre à¡ll minden olyan gyakorlat, amire szükséged lehet tudatod fejlesztéséhez. A Buddhà¡k megtanà­tottak mindent, aminek ismeretére szükséged lehet. Semmi értelme a buddhizmusra hajazà³ new-age mozgalmaknak. Minek kell létrehozni bà¡rmit, amikor a Buddha mà¡r mindent megtanà­tott, amire a spirituà¡lis Ösvényünkön szükség lehet? Ki à¡llà­thatja, hogy jobban csinà¡lja, mint a Buddha??

Ha helyesen gyakorolsz, és megteremtetted hozzà¡ az okokat, akkor szert fogsz tenni megvalà³sà­tà¡sra és képességekre (sziddhikre), hogy segà­thess mà¡sokat. Semmi szükség arra, hogy Å‘rületes mà³don erÅ‘k utà¡n csörtess, különösen nem olyanok utà¡n, amik gyors fordulatot vehetnek a tudaton és az egà³t àºj erÅ‘vel tölthetik fel … miközben a Dharma lényege épp az ellenkezÅ‘ irà¡nyban lenne.

Gyà³gyà­tà³ként 25 éve fogadok betegeket. Az emberek sokszor azt kérdezik, hogy mi a neve a mà³dszeremnek! Hosszas magyarà¡zatba kezdhetnék arrà³l, hogy hogyan kezdtem elsajà¡tà­tani ezt és azt, és felfedeztem ilyen és ilyen mà³dszereket és technikà¡kat, amik nagyon titkosak, és sok pénzért meg is tanà­thatom nekik.
Nem. Az én mà³dszerem a Dharma. Gyakorlatom a Gyà³gyà­tà³ Buddha. Motivà¡cià³m a Bodhicsitta. Ez mà¡r tartalmazza mindazt, amire szükség lehet. Azon tàºl, hogy a test gyà³gyulà¡sà¡hoz bizonyos segà­tséget nyàºjt, a Dharma hatékonyan dolgozik a tudaton. ElÅ‘ször jön a gyakorlà³ tudatà¡nak segà­tése, majd pedig a betegek. Mivel egy vak nem mutathat Ösvényt a többi vaknak…

Megértem, hogy az emberek szeretnek à¡lmodozni és fantà¡zià¡lni. A buddhizmus azonban az „erÅ‘k” tekintetében, melyek könnyen megzavarhatjà¡k a tudatot és felfàºjhatjà¡k az egà³t nagyon tiszta és alà¡zatos. Mi nem levità¡lunk (legalà¡bbis nem minden nap ;) ), nem materializà¡lunk virà¡gokat (minek is tennénk), nem mondjuk neked, hogy bizonyos összegű pénz befizetése utà¡n egyre feljebb lépdelsz a szinteken vagy rangban, amikor is là¡tni fogod az összes elÅ‘zÅ‘ életedet, asztrà¡lis kivetà­téseket produkà¡lsz, és csodà¡s gyà³gyà­tà³và¡ và¡lsz!
A frusztrà¡lt emberek ezért mà¡shol prà³bà¡lkoznak. Ott, ahol valaki hà­rnévre vagy pénzre, vagy „tanà­tvà¡nyai” alapjà¡n valami mà¡s kivà¡ltsà¡gra và¡gyott, akiben elég gÅ‘g volt ahhoz, hogy megjà¡tssza, hogy legjobb és legmélységesebb, leggyorsabb mà³dszereket „fedezett fel” vagy „hozott a nyugatra”. (és ugyanakkor jà³ drà¡ga mà³dszereket is! A mi modern tà¡rsadalmunkban mindennek à¡ra van!) Ezek azonban csak illàºzià³k, csalà¡sok, hiteltelenek és ezért az egà³d és gÅ‘göd fejlÅ‘déséhez vezetnek, ahelyett, hogy a Béke és Megvilà¡gosodà¡s felé haladnà¡l.

Nos, sajnà¡lom és szomorຠvagyok, ha nem érted a fentieket…

#16 Secret

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 08:06 AM

Kedves Shemphen!
Én voltam nà¡lad tanà­tà¡sodon.
De kellemetlenül érint az, hogy teljesen mà¡srà³l beszélsz mint amit cselekszel.
Tehà¡t te is gyà³gyà­tà³ vagy, mostmà¡r értem miért irkà¡lsz a Nadi ellen.
A prà¡nanadi nem tartozik a Buddhizmushoz, sÅ‘tt semilyen vallà¡shoz, ezért nem talà¡lsz rà³la leà­rà¡st, de ez a honlapjukon is kint van.
A naività¡srà³l csak annyit, hogy egy rà¡kos beteg ezek szerint naà­v, mert szeretne meggyà³gyulni?
Megmondom Å‘szintén engem és nagyon sok embert nem érdekel, hogy mitÅ‘l gyà³gyulnak meg.
Az tény, hogy sok szà¡zezer ember gyà³gyult meg a Prà¡nanadità³l, hogy miképpen működik az senkit nem érdekel, de viszont bizonyà­tottan működik és ez a lényeg. Az orvosok, nem tudtak segà­teni, rà¡kos beteg voltam, szerencsére rà¡talà¡ltam a gyà³gyà­tà³mra.
Shemphen köszönöm, hogy rà¡vilà¡gà­tottà¡l dolgokra.
Kà­và¡nom, hogy érd el a megvilà¡gosodà¡st minden lény javà¡ra.
Én jà¡rom az utam tovà¡bb, te is tedd, de a fogadalmad szerint.

Dr Juhà¡sz Kà¡roly

#17 m_v

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 09:22 AM

Kedves Shemphen!
Én voltam nà¡lad tanà­tà¡sodon.
De kellemetlenül érint az, hogy teljesen mà¡srà³l beszélsz mint amit cselekszel.
Tehà¡t te is gyà³gyà­tà³ vagy, mostmà¡r értem miért irkà¡lsz a Nadi ellen.
A prà¡nanadi nem tartozik a Buddhizmushoz, sÅ‘tt semilyen vallà¡shoz, ezért nem talà¡lsz rà³la leà­rà¡st, de ez a honlapjukon is kint van.
A naività¡srà³l csak annyit, hogy egy rà¡kos beteg ezek szerint naà­v, mert szeretne meggyà³gyulni?
Megmondom Å‘szintén engem és nagyon sok embert nem érdekel, hogy mitÅ‘l gyà³gyulnak meg.
Az tény, hogy sok szà¡zezer ember gyà³gyult meg a Prà¡nanadità³l, hogy miképpen működik az senkit nem érdekel, de viszont bizonyà­tottan működik és ez a lényeg. Az orvosok, nem tudtak segà­teni, rà¡kos beteg voltam, szerencsére rà¡talà¡ltam a gyà³gyà­tà³mra.
Shemphen köszönöm, hogy rà¡vilà¡gà­tottà¡l dolgokra.
Kà­và¡nom, hogy érd el a megvilà¡gosodà¡st minden lény javà¡ra.
Én jà¡rom az utam tovà¡bb, te is tedd, de a fogadalmad szerint.

Dr Juhà¡sz Kà¡roly


TRANSLATION

Dear Shemphen!
I was there at your teaching. But I feel uncomfortable that you talk differently from how you act. So you are a healer too, now I understand why you scribble against Nadi. Prananadi doesnt belongs to Buddhism, neither to any other religion, therefore you dont find a description about it, buti t is also said on their website.
As for the naivity, it could mean that a patient with cancer is naiv, because he wants to recover?
To be honest, I and many people are not interested in how they recover.
The fact is that many hundredthousand people got healed from prananadi, and nobody is interested how it works, but it works as it is proven. Doctors couldnt help, I was a patient with cancer, and fortunatelly I found my healer.
Shemphen, thank you that you shed light on things.
I wish you to reach enlightenment for the benefit of all beings.
I walk on my on path, do so you too, but according to your vow.

Dr Juhà¡sz Kà¡roly


Kà¡roly!

Your letter only testifies a great level of ignorance. Besides that it swarms from logical inconsistencies - though you put a Dr title before your name, despite that your general knowledge and sophistication of reasoning leaves much to be desired - your way of written (probably as well as spoken) communication is extremely vulgar.
First, the Lama, you addresse in your letter is not Shemphen, but Shenphen. This is not only the lack of a basic attention, but also a testimony of your loose need to precision.
Second, if somebody talks and argues for my sake - especially if a genuine Lama is he (who is acknowledged by the Tibetan Buddhist system), the minimum is that I take in consideration what was said by Him, and try to understand His point, even if it makes a hardship for my treadwheel brain at the moment. I guess you make a false measurement with regard of the weight of strenght, intelligence and compassion between the Lama and you. In your place, I would reconsider my delusions about how well-founded my viewing of world is. At least, read a littlebit more about Buddhism - since though being a Buddhist you havent done yet so- and understand the meaning of reaching the level of Lama, Tulku, and guess the approximate knowledge behind such real titles!
If you would have done it earlier - before you bring shame for your name in Buddhist and knowledgable people’s circle on a forum - you would know, that beings with such Realizations as Rinpoche has, mastered not only logic (Buddhism has a perfect system of reasoning. Logic came to existence and got perfected in India due to Buddhism too, and it contributed greatly to the developement of medicine as well, all over Asia - what information you probably do not possess being this underinformed), but they also have a perfect understanding about the mechanism of forces that are upkeeping samsara - which force is basically such ignorance, that was exemplarly presented in your letter.
So for your own sake, it would be reasonable to fill these shortcomings of yours, and that you find a suitable tone in your communication with those, who only wished your benefit.
Good luck in your developement.
mariann

Kà¡roly!

Levele nagyfokຠtudatlansà¡gà¡rà³l bizonyà­tvà¡ny csupà¡n. Amellett, hogy hemzseg a logikai következetlenségtÅ‘l - bà¡r Dr. titulust pakol a neve elé, jà³llehet tà¡jékozottsà¡ga, és érvelési kifinomultsà¡ga hagy némi kà­và¡nnivalà³t - , rà¡adà¡sul rendkà­vül alpà¡ri mà³don érintkezik à­rà¡sban - gondolom szà³ban is. ElÅ‘ször is, a Là¡ma, akihez levelét intézte, nem Shemphen, hanem Shenphen - nem csak az alapvetÅ‘ figyelmesség hià¡nya, hanem precizità¡sà¡rà³l is tanàºsà­tvà¡ny. Mà¡sodszor, ha valaki az érdekemben beszél és érvel, fÅ‘leg ha egy hiteles Là¡mà¡rà³l (akit a tibeti buddhista rendszer is nyilvà¡ntart) van szà³, az a minimum, hogy elgondolkodom rajta, és elsÅ‘sorban megprà³bà¡lom megérteni, még akkor is, ha mà³kuskerék agyamnak ez momentà¡n erÅ‘feszà­tésbe kerül. Azt hiszem rosszul méri fel az erÅ‘, intelligencia és együttérzési viszonyokat a Là¡ma és maga között. Én a helyében felülvizsgà¡lnà¡m tévképzeteimet arrà³l, hogy mennyire megalapozott a vilà¡gnézetem. Minimum utà¡naolvas kicsit a buddhizmusnak - ha eddig buddhista létére nem tette még meg - és felfogja, hogy ki az, aki elérte egy Là¡ma, Tulku szintjét, és nagyjà¡bà³l felbecsüli, hogy milyen tudà¡s és képességek à¡llnak e mögött. Ha ezt korà¡bban megtette volna, mielÅ‘tt lejà¡ratja magà¡t a Buddhista és az értelem vilà¡ga elÅ‘tt egy fà³rumon, akkor tudnà¡, hogy Rinpocséhez hasonlà³ Megértéssel rendelkezÅ‘ lények mesterei nemcsak a logikà¡nak (a buddhizmusnak tökéletes érvelési rendszere van. Indià¡ban a logika Buddhista hatà¡sra alakult ki és tökéletesedett - a vilà¡gon elsÅ‘ként, illetve komolyan hozzà¡jà¡rult az orvostudomà¡ny fejlÅ‘déséhez szerte àzsià¡ban - amirÅ‘l maga nyilvà¡n nem tud tà¡jékozatlansà¡ga miatt), hanem tökéletes rà¡là¡tà¡suk van a szamszà¡rà¡t fenntartà³ erÅ‘k mechanikà¡jà¡ra, ami alapvetÅ‘en az olyan tudatlansà¡g, amit maga is példà¡san statuà¡lt fenti levelében. Tehà¡t a maga érdekében javasolhatà³ lenne ezen kisebb hià¡nyossà¡gok pà³tlà¡sa, illetve a megfelelÅ‘ hangnem megtalà¡là¡sa azokkal szemben, akik a maga javà¡t kà­và¡ntà¡k csupà¡n.
Sok sikert a fejlÅ‘désben.
mariann

#18 LamaShenphen

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 10:28 AM

Dr Juhà¡sz Kà¡roly


Dear Dr Juhà¡sz Kà¡roly

I do act the same exact way I teach: aiming to be truthful to what I believe can help the others. I could ask you to point any discrepancy between both.

Karma, and how it works, is not easy to understand correctly; how cancer is created and can disappear under the law of karma, without any external intervention, can be also difficult to understand.
Hundreds of thousands of patients are healed without any further intervention than the one of their own mind, in accordance with their own karma; though patients need to raise their energy level and confidence in the possible result sometime to activate some karmas. This can be the role of the healer or/and spiritual leader.

Despite what you are implying, I am at ease that does exist other ways of healing, and other healers. It is not my main activity, and I never ask any money for that. It's a "service" I'm glad to provide for all people. Like teachings, I never ask money for that.

I will dare to think that I know Tibet better than you, and better than most prananadi people, for I have spent not just one life time there. And to claim that prananadi techniques comes from there is simply a lame lie. Other than that, that you believe in this technique, as other believe in reki, is absolutely not a problem for me. There are many ways to "heal".

Fact is that I receive patients who either have been "healed" by prananadi, or ex-prananadi practitioners, seeking to be really helped in their spiritual path, or because the previous "healing" didn't give much result - which is fine, not all methods are effective to all people, it depends on the karma of each patient.
Fact also is that the large majority of prananadi follower are pretending to do things they have absolutely no clue about. To pretend to become able to do astral projections and past life investigation because you have followed some courses, paid some money, and granted a level is so childish to me. It's like when children are playing: "we would say that you are... and you will do this and that". Illusion. But when you are talking to them about serious work on the mind, purification methods, meditation, and such, to deal with their ego, hooooo what are we talking about! They don't need this, prananadi teachs them everything they need! They are great spiritual beings already and need no one, nothing.

I have some friends you are genuinely Buddhist and use some techniques they found in prananadi; same as I have Buddhist friends using reki methods. No problem at all. If it helps them to focus their energy better, to help the others, all good. But these friends do not fall in the trick of the "guru" thing with false masters, and do not believe that these methods are "secret methods from Tibet", for they have understanding and faith in the Three Jewel of Buddha Dharma.

Nowadays, if you want something to catch the interest of people, it has to be "secret", and from Tibet. This I disagree, because naive people can believe that and mix it with genuine Buddhism... and eventually reject Buddhism on the basis of what they see in such groups, which are not teaching and practicing true Dharma.
Ask your grand'master to stop using Tibet for his own benefit, and all would be fine. Using simple offering mudras for example and pretending it is secret transmission, is so stupid, but creates confusion.
One man comes out with his own method of healing and calls it however he wants, I see no problem, as long as it helps some people. But creating confusion which harms Buddha Dharma is not ok, and we have to say it. Simply. No slander, just facts. No aggression of any kind, explanation out of Compassion and Patience.

See, if I spend the time to explain you this, it is not for me. For, I would prefer to use this time for my own spiritual practice. I am not justifying my position, but I try to explain its ground. In Buddha Dharma there is nothing hidden, all has been explained by the Buddhas.

Would you have any further questions, I would advise you to come visit me and I'll be glad to discuss any points directly.


PS: by the way, my name is Shenphen (or Shenpen) but not "Shemphen" :) Furthermore, it sounds too close to "champagne" ;)
Lama Shenpen Rinpoche
---
"For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world." (Arya Shantideva)

#19 m_v

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 11:57 AM

Kedves Shemphen!
Én voltam nà¡lad tanà­tà¡sodon.
De kellemetlenül érint az, hogy teljesen mà¡srà³l beszélsz mint amit cselekszel.
Tehà¡t te is gyà³gyà­tà³ vagy, mostmà¡r értem miért irkà¡lsz a Nadi ellen.
A prà¡nanadi nem tartozik a Buddhizmushoz, sÅ‘tt semilyen vallà¡shoz, ezért nem talà¡lsz rà³la leà­rà¡st, de ez a honlapjukon is kint van.
A naività¡srà³l csak annyit, hogy egy rà¡kos beteg ezek szerint naà­v, mert szeretne meggyà³gyulni?
Megmondom Å‘szintén engem és nagyon sok embert nem érdekel, hogy mitÅ‘l gyà³gyulnak meg.
Az tény, hogy sok szà¡zezer ember gyà³gyult meg a Prà¡nanadità³l, hogy miképpen működik az senkit nem érdekel, de viszont bizonyà­tottan működik és ez a lényeg. Az orvosok, nem tudtak segà­teni, rà¡kos beteg voltam, szerencsére rà¡talà¡ltam a gyà³gyà­tà³mra.
Shemphen köszönöm, hogy rà¡vilà¡gà­tottà¡l dolgokra.
Kà­và¡nom, hogy érd el a megvilà¡gosodà¡st minden lény javà¡ra.
Én jà¡rom az utam tovà¡bb, te is tedd, de a fogadalmad szerint.

Dr Juhà¡sz Kà¡roly


Rinpoche's answer in Hungarian
RINPOCHE VàLASZA MAGYARUL:



Kedves Dr. Juhà¡sz Kà¡roly,

Én pontosan azt csinà¡lom, amit tanà­tok: igyekszem hű maradni ahhoz, amirÅ‘l azt gondolom, hogy segà­thet mà¡sokat. Megkérnélek, hogy mutass rà¡ akà¡r egy ellentmondà¡sra is a két dolog között.

Nem könnyű pontosan megérteni a karmà¡t, és hogy az hogyan működik; nehéz lehet azt is megérteni, hogy a rà¡k hogyan jöhet létre és tűnhet el karma következtében, bà¡rmiféle külsÅ‘ beavatkozà¡s nélkül.
Betegek szà¡zezrei gyà³gyultak meg mà¡s egyéb beavatkozà¡s nélkül, csupà¡n sajà¡t tudatuk alapjà¡n, sajà¡t karmà¡juk következtében. Bà¡r meg kell emelni a beteg energiaszintjét, és bizalmà¡t a lehetséges eredményt illetÅ‘leg, hogy bizonyos karmà¡k aktivà¡là³djanak. Ez lehet a gyà³gyà­tà³ és/vagy spirituà¡lis vezetÅ‘ szerepe.

àllà­tà¡sod ellenére, nekem semmi gondom azzal, hogy léteznek mà¡s gyà³gyà­tà³ technikà¡k és mà¡s gyà³gyà­tà³k. Ez nem a fÅ‘ tevékenységem és soha nem kérek érte pénzt. Ez egy „szolgà¡lat”, amit szà­vesen nyàºjtok bà¡rkinek. Akà¡rcsak a tanà­tà¡sok, soha nem kérek értük pénzt.

Merem azt gondolni, hogy jobban ismerem Tibetet mint te, és jobban, mint a legtöbb prananadis, mivel nem csak egy életet töltöttem ott. És arra hivatkozni, hogy a prananadi technikà¡k onnan jönnek, az egyszerűen gyatra hazugsà¡g. EttÅ‘l eltekintve, semmi problémà¡t nem jelent szà¡momra hogy te hiszel ebben a technikà¡ban, miképp mà¡sok hisznek a reikiben. Sok mà³dja lehet a „gyà³gyà­tà¡snak”.
A tény az, hogy jönnek hozzà¡m olyan betegek, akiket prananadival „gyà³gyà­tottak”, vagy ex-prananadi gyakorlà³k, akik igazi segà­tséget keresnek spirituà¡lis ösvényükön, vagy azért mert a korà¡bbi „gyà³gyà­tà¡s” nem hozott eredményt - ami rendben van, nem minden mà³dszer hatékony minden embernél, ez az egyes betegek karmà¡jà¡n màºlik.

Az is tény, hogy a prananadi követÅ‘k nagy többsége megjà¡tsza, hogy olyan dolgokat csinà¡l, amirÅ‘l halvà¡ny sejtelme sincs. Megjà¡tszani, hogy képes lettél asztrà¡lis projekcià³kat és elÅ‘zÅ‘ életbeli vizsgà¡là³dà¡sokat csinà¡ni, csak mert végigkövettél néhà¡ny kurzust, fizettél némi pénzt, és megajà¡ndékoztak egy szinttel - mindez olyan gyerekes szà¡momra. Ez olyan, mint amikor a gyerekek azt jà¡tszà¡k, hogy „mondjuk te leszel a … és ezt és ezt fogod csinà¡lni”. Illàºzià³. Amikor azonban a tudaton történÅ‘ komoly munkà¡rà³l, tisztà­tà¡si mà³dszerekrÅ‘l, medità¡cià³rà³l stb., az egà³n valà³ munkà¡lkodà¡srà³l beszélnél velük, akkor hàºha, mirÅ‘l akarunk itt beszélni! Ez nem kell nekik, a prananadi megtanà­t nekik mindent ami kellhet! Ők mà¡r eleve hatalmas szellemi lények és senkire, semmire nincs szükségük.
Vannak barà¡taim, akik igazi buddhistà¡k, és hasznà¡lnak prananadi technikà¡kat, ugyancsak vannak barà¡taim, akik reiki mà³dszereket hasznà¡lnak. Semmi gond. Ha segà­t nekik abban, hogy jobban fà³kuszà¡ljà¡k az energià¡t, hogy mà¡sokat segà­tsenek, akkor mindez rendben. De ezek a barà¡tok nem esnek a „guru” dolog csapdà¡jà¡ba hamis mesterekkel kapcsolatban, és nem hiszik, hogy ezek „titkos tibeti mà³dszerek”, mivel értik és hitük van a Buddha Dharma Hà¡rom Drà¡gasà¡gà¡ban.

Manapsà¡g, ha valamivel meg akarod ragadni az emberek figyelmét, annak „titkosnak” és tibetinek kell lennie. Ezzel nem értek egyet, mert a naiv emberek elhiszik, és összekeverik a hiteles buddhizmussal… és végsÅ‘soron elutasà­tjà¡k a buddhizmust azok là¡ttà¡n, amit ilyen csoportokban megfigyelnek, ahol nem az igaz Dharmà¡t tanà­tjà¡k és gyakoroljà¡k.

Kérd meg „nagymestered” hogy hagyja abba, hogy Tibetet hasznà¡lja sajà¡t haszonszerzésére, és akkor minden rendben. Példà¡ul egyszerű felajà¡nlà¡si mudrà¡kat hasznà¡lni, és àºgy tenni, mintha titkos à¡tadà¡s lenne - egyszerűen annyira ostoba. Ugyanakkor zavart okoz.
Ha valaki sajà¡t gyà³gyà­tà³ mà³dszert dolgoz ki és valamilyen nevet ad neki, azzal kapcsolatban nem là¡tok problémà¡t, ameddig segà­t néhà¡nyaknak. De az olyan zavarkeltés nem oké, ami à¡rt a Buddha Dharmà¡nak, és ezt ki is kell mondanunk. Egyszerűen. Nem rà¡galmazà¡s, csak tények. Semmi agresszià³, hanem csak EgyüttérzésbÅ‘l és TürelembÅ‘l fakadà³ magyarà¡zat.

Là¡thatod, nem magamért teszem, ha idÅ‘t töltök azzal, hogy elmagyarà¡zzam neked mindezt. Mivel szà­vesebben tölteném ezt az idÅ‘t sajà¡t spirituà¡lis gyakorlatommal. Nem védem à¡llà¡spontomat, hanem megprà³bà¡lom elmagyarà¡zni az alapjait. A Buddha Dharmà¡ban nincs semmi rejtett, a Buddhà¡k mindent elmagyarà¡ztak.


Ha lennének tovà¡bbi kérdéseid, azt tanà¡csolom, hogy là¡togass meg, és szà­vesen beszélgetek veled személyesen akà¡rmelyik pontrà³l.


Ui.: mellesleg a nevem Shenphen (vagy Shenpen) és nem „Shemphen” :) . Ami egyébként tàºl hasonlà³an cseng a „champagne”-hoz ;) .




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