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Color Of White Cloud

ranglug debate color

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#1 Dinara

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 11:12 AM

Question about color of white cloud (subject). This is primary or secondary color?
1)
 Could say:  Secondary because it is cloud . Cloud  (Trin) is secondary color (reason?)
Question: No pervasion. Possible secondary white color? 
Could say:  No, because white it is primary color.
//deadlock??//
2)
Could say:  Color of white cloud - primary color? Because white is primary color.(reason).
Question: No pervasion. Yet. Cloud is secondary color. Its not be able primary.
Could say: // it is impossible to understand for me! I am think. My ideas. Possible 2 variant of answer.//
1) If cloud tangible object. The color of white cloud (sublect)  is primary white color (pervasion)/
2) If oblect (sublect) is color of secondary color (cloud).  Its not be able primary. Secondary color (sublect) not be able primary color.
 
It is correctly?
 


#2 Sasha

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 10:33 AM

So, we have 2 controversial conclusions:

 

I) White color of a cloud

It is subset(or member) of a white color

Because it is white

 

II) White color of a cloud

It is subset(or member) of color of cloud

Because it is color of cloud

 

Both are valid (it is to the question of validness)



#3 Goodie

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 11:20 PM

So, we have 2 controversial conclusions:

 

I) White color of a cloud

It is subset(or member) of a white color

Because it is white

 

II) White color of a cloud

It is subset(or member) of color of cloud

Because it is color of cloud

 

Both are valid (it is to the question of validness)

I don't think they are controversial because from debate II. it doesn't follow that white color of cloud is secondary color (it only follows that it is a color of cloud).

 

However, if we rewrite the debate II. so that it tries to prove that white color of a cloud is secondary color, then ranglug can defeat it, because not all colors of cloud are in the secondary group color of cloud.

 

Opponent says:
White color of a cloud
It is a secondary color
Because it is a member of color of cloud.
 
Ranglug says: Ma khyab (if something is a member of color of cloud it is not necessarily secondary color).


#4 Sasha

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 04:51 PM

Well, then in the same logic it should be: if something is a member of white color it is not necessarily root color



#5 Goodie

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 07:54 PM

Not sure how to put this in debate format, so it is more in free format:
 
There is no such problem, because the two cases are not analogous. This is because secondary colors include only mixed colors, and when they say that colors of cloud are a member of secondary colors, they include in this group only colors of clouds which are mixed colors, and not all colors of cloud (thus color of white cloud is excluded from this group).
 
However white color is always a primary color, because primary colors has only non-mixed colors, thus it can not be in secondary colors.


#6 Goodie

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 02:06 PM

That secondary color cloud include only colors of clouds which are secondary (or mixed) color also seems to be defined in ranglug section. I think this follows because when they list the secondary colors they use the "der gyur pa'i". But this would need to be checked.
 
Also, on this link on page 17 and 20 http://uma-tibet.org...grwa/debate.pdf Rinpoche gives the following explanation on this topic:

C: ... If secondary colors are divided, how many are there?
D: There are eight.
C: It follows that there are not eight. Posit the eight.
D: There are [eight]. The subjects, the eight--the cloud color which is that, the smoke color which is that, the dust color which is that, the mist color which is that, the illumination color which is that, the darkness color which is that, the shadow color which is that, and the sunlight color which is that.
 
When we say "which is that" as in the expression "a cloud color which is that," it means "which is a secondary color" as, for example "a cloud color which is a secondary color." That is because among cloud colors there are primary colors and secondary colors; so, it has to be specified as a cloud color which is a secondary color.

 

 



#7 Sasha

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 09:59 AM

No, I mean, I understand this - Geshela also expressed this idea of mixed and non-mixed colors. But it is tricky. Because if we would follow the text we would not be able to find that colors of cloud are devided into 2 groups: only colors of clouds which are mixed colors and only colors of clouds which are non-mixed colors. If we would find this - okay, I agree. But according to the text - that doesn't follow. I think that's why Geshela stopped the debate and asked: what is your personal rang lug?



#8 Goodie

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 03:23 PM

But according to the text - that doesn't follow.

Maybe there are different explanations, but professor Dan Perdue, who translated the text in English (Debate in Tibetan Buddhism, p197), explains the original Tibetan text as saying:

 

Technically, these eight "secondary colors" must be specified as secondary colors; thus, the debate manuals qualify these as, for instance, "a cloud color which is that" (der gyur pa'i sprin gyi kha dog) referring to a cloud which is a secondary color. Some cloud colors are secondary colors and some are not.

 



#9 Sasha

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 03:56 PM

Actually, that is the only way to avoid this contradiction







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