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karmic effects of eating meat


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#1 Khyenrab

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 12:39 PM

Also, another question, and then I will shut my mouth for some time.

We spoke of karma: what are, according to Buddhism, karmic effects of eating meat?
For example - I just ate a little bit of salami, I don't eat a lot of meat at all, but one in six meals has a little bit of meat included - especially in the winter. Karma seems to me mostly a matter that has the most to do with the attitude of our minds, but not entirely...

Thank you.
Now I retire. :wink:

#2 Shenpen.Rinpoche

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:57 PM

Tashi Delek ,

We spoke of karma: what are, according to Buddhism, karmic effects of eating meat?
For example - I just ate a little bit of salami, I don't eat a lot of meat at all, but one in six meals has a little bit of meat included - especially in the winter. Karma seems to me mostly a matter that has the most to do with the attitude of our minds, but not entirely...


It is I guess a vast and sometime sensitive subject of discussion.
From the strict point of view of karma, to accumulate negative imprints based on eating meat, one should be directly connected with the fact of killing i.e. to kill oneself or to request someone to kill.
If you go regularly (ex. each Sunday) to buy a chicken to the local butcher, there is also a direct connection, because the butcher will probably kill a chicken to answer you regular request. But if you are just going irregularly to a supermarket and buy one day salami, an other day a steak; then it is said there is no direct connection and therefore no bad karma of killing an animal.
So it is said... And I guess it is said so to allow communities whose survival is based on eating meat (i.e. Tibetans on high plateaux, where vegetables, fruits and the like, do not grow) to survive.

Such extreme cases put aside, I would say that if you wish to fully respect sentient beings it appears natural to do not eat them! Whenever there is the possibility to live without meat, it is undoubtedly better to be vegetarian.

We can ask ourselves 'why' to eat meat? And every sincere person will come to the result 'by attachment', to the taste mainly, to the feeling it gives, to the convenience sometime (easy to prepare)... For what else?? For the health? Surely not! Proves that meat is toxic for our organism exist since long. And definitely not to support your spiritual practice (in Buddhism at least).

Some people did object that Tibetans are eating meat 8O
First of all, lets look at our own life and practice before to look at what the others are doing ;) Second, to be Tibetan doesn't imply that you are free of attachment. It was 'cultural' in Tibet (as in several other countries); it is obvious an attachment where fruits and vegetables are widely available!

Then, some others will say that some Lamas are eating meat! :?
I will not enter here again within what means 'lama', you can read this article. We cannot judge high Lama. They know what they are doing, and may be when they are eating some flesh, they also help the consciousness of the dead animal to get a better rebirth. Who knows?
Then, the body of high Lamas (Bodhisattvas and Buddhas) are, we can say, of different nature. They are reborn out of the karma of the beings they will help. Causes for existence might sometime require a certain 'level of energy' (low) for the body, which meat can bring.
His Holiness the Dalaï-Lama always encourage people to be vegetarian, even though his personal Tibetan doctor strongly advised Him to take some meat, otherwise His Holiness would fall sick. But Kyabje Zopa Rinpoche (an other Enlightened Being of our time) is purely vegetarian and tirelessly teaches the benefit of not eating meat.

I did visit a slaughterhouse about 20 years ago. I have watched three veal to be shot between the eyes, then pulled upside down, and the throat cut out. Two of them, supposed to be unconscious, woke up with the pain¦#133; but instead of sound coming out of their mouth, it was their own blood! :cry: Barely dead, their body was sliced, and put into pieces. The steam of the warm blood and flesh was filling the room.
Close to this place, there was a truck full of sheeps. They were under shock, smelling the blood, tripes and guts, hearing the dying veals¦#133; They were shaking of their whole body. This is the meat you will eat afterward! Full of fear and stress¦#133;
I am
vegetarian since this time.

It is clearly said that all sentient beings have been our mother at least one time since the beginningless existence in the Samsara.
Because of the karma, consciousnesses evolve in the six realms of existence, among which the animal one. Consequently, whenever you are eating flesh, you are eating someone who has been at one point of your existence your loving and compassionate mother! Awful no? :roll:

I can find MANY reasons to be vegetarian, but NONE to eat meat...

I hope it answers your question.
All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen
Lama Shenpen Rinpoche
---
"For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world." (Arya Shantideva)

#3 Khyenrab

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 01:17 AM

Thank you very much for the reply. It makes me want to be a vegetarian. :)

I must put an additional question. Many times I have eaten freshly prepared meat and (and this may sound somewhat strange) I felt very grateful to the animal for the 'sacrifice'. A sort of goodness and prayer for the well-being of the minds and feelings of the rabit or deer overcame me, out of sympathy and affection. Since it was already dead I was joyful that it was I who had eaten the meal (of course it was also I who ordered it in the restaurant). This may all seem "doublestandard" or even "hypocrisy" but the gratitude (not completely induced by taste) had a feeling of pity for the animal, particularly lately I feel this way. Also I find that meat as 'matter with a certain kind of vibration' gives to the body more resilient strenght without which the body would definetely be weaker, I may be wrong, but the pressures during the week are enormous. I am not saying eat a chicken per day, but a leg from a chicken per week seems rational to me. If then during the meal I pray with compassion as best as I can for the well-being of the chicken, I believe it is for the benefit of both the chicken and myself. Would you consider this as "ok"?

Best regards

#4 Shenpen.Rinpoche

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 07:44 AM

One assertion and one question.
Assertion: your body will NOT be weaker without meat, since you have around you all what you body needs to replace it i.e. soja products, fresh vegetables & fruits, nuts, etc... The energy I was mentioning in the previous post (concerning those high Lama) was an energy which "lower" the vibration of the body For those high Lama, anyhow, what doesn happen to the body doesn't affect the mind; for ordinary beings, it does! To lower the body's vibration affect the quality of the mind, tend to render the mind more aggressive and behaviour closer to "animal instinct"...

One question to see where the hypocrisie is ;) : would you be able to got to the farm, choose a chicken, kill it, prepare it for eating its leg "with gratitude"?? :?
If not, than this IS hypocrisie. You are waiting for someone else to kill for you. Now that you know about karma, and the negativity to take the life of an other sentient beings, how will you think about the fact that you are rejoicing someone else accumulate bad karma for you to eat some meat? Hum?

I've heard already many times the "excuse": "ho, the animal is already dead, and in my plate; therefore, I recite a prayer for it and pray for the best of this animal". This is clearly an excuse for me. If all the people who feel unconfortable to eat meat would stop to consume killed beings, less would be killed to fulfil their desire for meat...

Have a good and vegetarian day ;) Gelong T. Shenphen
Lama Shenpen Rinpoche
---
"For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world." (Arya Shantideva)

#5 Khyenrab

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 10:16 AM

Tashi Delek,

One question to see where the hypocrisie is : would you be able to got to the farm, choose a chicken, kill it, prepare it for eating its leg "with gratitude"??
--No, I would not.

If not, than this IS hypocrisie. You are waiting for someone else to kill for you.
--I am not waiting for anyone to kill for me. They are killing animals this very second and I can't do anything about it.

Now that you know about karma, and the negativity to take the life of an other sentient beings, how will you think about the fact that you are rejoicing someone else accumulate bad karma for you to eat some meat? Hum?
--I am not rejoicing at all.

Today MindOnly turns "VEGIE". We will see how my grandfather will take it! I hope not with a heart attack! :wink:

And no beer too?? I had and still have a rule that I can drink one beer when going to the pub with my friends, one, that's it! You don't get drunk and you can still watch the mind so that it doesn't go crazy. "The others can get tipsy if they want but I won't!" That is almost a cultural obligation - one beer! (and I admit, I like it)! You won't get me on this one! And I know what you are going to say: why then drink that one beer if you don't care to get drunk with the others?? I'll tell you - when you order the first beer everyone is (pretty much) sober and every 'inconsistency' is noticed in a flash and may be a basis for a really tough bullying debate - and you are the sole suffering target (all the week's troubles and frustrations of everyone at the table will be pointed directly at you!)! So, to escape from that - one orders a beer and drinks it real slow. When the others order the third one, you will be finishing the first one and they might not even notice your craziness. And if you say - thank you very much for such friends! - let me tell you - "Welcome to the desert of the real, Neo." :wink:

All the very best.

#6 Shenpen.Rinpoche

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 11:07 AM

I am not waiting for anyone to kill for me. They are killing animals this very second and I can't do anything about it

You, alone, might not change the long lasting habit of killing at once! But we can see already throughout the world the big change concerning food habits. Nowadays, you can find soja products and ¦#147;meat substitute¦#148; almost everywhere, including Slovenia ;) ! And there are vegetarian restaurants, cookbooks, in hospitals you can choose the type of meal you want, etc¦#133;
If all people who are hesitating would today stop to buy meat, if all children who wish to be vegetarian could do it, then it would have a big impact. In few days, some people would have to think differently, and less animal would be slaughtered.
We cannot change all the people, and we are not responsible for what they are doing under the influence of their own disturbed mind¦#133; but we are responsible for what we are doing, and not doing. And by our example we could influence others a lot!

Today MindOnly turns "VEGIE". We will see how my grandfather will take it! I hope not with a heart attack! :wink:

Since when the parents and grand-parents have the right to dictate how we have to eat?! 8O How old are you? :wink:
If they can¦#146;t understand the spiritual point in it, you always can explain the health part. It is proven (by several very serious medical analysis) that meat increase for example colon cancers! And surely several other ones, but so far no direct scientific evidence has been brought up.

And no beer too?? I had and still have a rule that I can drink one beer when going to the pub with my friends, one, that's it!

Unless you decide to take the first Buddhist vows, alcohol is not prohibited ¦#147;by law¦#148;! ;) To get drunk, though, as you understand, is a clear mistake, basis for the creation of much negativity.

All the very best, Gelong T. Shenphen
Lama Shenpen Rinpoche
---
"For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world." (Arya Shantideva)

#7 Geblendet

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 09:23 AM

Not long ago i went to my aunt and on the way i watched the trees, the grass and the flowers, heared the birds and everything else surrounding me and while i looked to the grass wich wasent just green because the first flowers came out i asked myself: "I can walk, i can see, i can feel and more, but what can this flower do? Just standing arround an making me happy because of its look. Maybe this flower makes other people happy because of this look, and maybe it lets other insects or animals, lets say beeings survive. I dont know if a flower is real or not, but there is one thing im sure. When im real, and when im allive and when i see that flower and when that flower growed some day like i did, than this flower is a beeing like me. Maybe this flower cant think or feel or walk like me, but this flower exists like me and like the insects and the animals." This brought me to the point that this flower has the same right to life like me, and like the other animals and insects, so now i dont understand whats the difference in killing and eating a animal and killing and eating a flower (or fruits, however ^^).

I dont know, maybe i think wrong but for me there isntn a difference anymore in humans, animals and plants. They are all the same.

Our scientists did much tests with plants and what i think is that plants know whats going on arround them, so im sure they know whats going on when somebodys coming and killing them. People who talk with their plants and love them will have more sucess in creating a gardnen then people who dont like their flowers so much.

I did visit a slaughterhouse about 20 years ago. I have watched three veal to be shot between the eyes, then pulled upside down, and the throat cut out. Two of them, supposed to be unconscious, woke up with the pain¦#133; but instead of sound coming out of their mouth, it was their own blood! Barely dead, their body was sliced, and put into pieces. The steam of the warm blood and flesh was filling the room.
Close to this place, there was a truck full of sheeps. They were under shock, smelling the blood, tripes and guts, hearing the dying veals¦#133; They were shaking of their whole body. This is the meat you will eat afterward! Full of fear and stress¦#133;
I am vegetarian since this time.

A good Idea!

I cannot stop eating meat now, but maybe when i take a look at a slaugtherhouse i can change my mind. Thats the smallest thing i can do because when i see my steak on the plate than its just a steak on my plate and no pig, or cow or whatever. :?

#8 Shenpen.Rinpoche

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 04:37 PM

I dont know, maybe i think wrong but for me there isntn a difference anymore in humans, animals and plants. They are all the same.

I agree between the humans and the animals, but not with the plants. It is a question of consciousness. Plants, flowers, grass do not have consciousness.

Our scientists did much tests with plants and what i think is that plants know whats going on arround them, so im sure they know whats going on when somebodys coming and killing them. People who talk with their plants and love them will have more sucess in creating a gardnen then people who dont like their flowers so much.

All the researches I have read about are in fact bringing up chemical reactions either to odors, magnetic fields, vibrations. But nothing about awareness and consciousness.

I cannot stop eating meat now

You cannot or you don't want?! ;)

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen
Lama Shenpen Rinpoche
---
"For as long as space endures, And as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide, To dispel the misery of the world." (Arya Shantideva)

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 09:17 PM

Hi,

I cannot stop eating meat now, but maybe when i take a look at a slaugtherhouse i can change my mind. Thats the smallest thing i can do because when i see my steak on the plate than its just a steak on my plate and no pig, or cow or whatever. :?

I have a short video recorded in a slaughterhouse. :cry: You can write me on private message, if you want to borrow it.

Best regards,
Khandro

#10 Geblendet

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 08:45 AM

I agree between the humans and the animals, but not with the plants. It is a question of consciousness. Plants, flowers, grass do not have consciousness.

Oh, good than i understand that :). But does that mean that i cant reincarnate as a plant someday, or that beeing a plant is just a other way of living a life wich i dont can imagine? I just wondering because they grow and they die so i thought they are living.

You cannot or you don't want?! ;)

Uh thats hard to answer, but its really not just because i dont want. I want, but i want not enough, thats my problem :-/. Its more a habit because i ate meat my whole life, nearly every day. I thing its so: Before buddhism i ate meat becaue i didnt knowed it better...., now i eat it because im to weak to stop it. So i have to use other methods, if words and understanding is not enough. I have to see what im doing, or what i let doing.

I have a short video recorded in a slaughterhouse. You can write me on private message, if you want to borrow it.

Thank you, i will.


greetings :)

#11 just_me

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:37 PM

Hi Lama and everybody,
I have been given myriad answers to this one, even by the same person :? , so i want to get your opinion, although, based on past talks i probably know your answer.
Whenever and wherever possible, i do not eat meat. However, my parents are not vegetarian and gets offended if i am there for dinner and do not eat what is fixed. They are very much the american farm family. I have gotten around it by taking whatever i think is the smallest acceptable amount and praying for the poor animal. I tried explaining about being vegetarian, but they (at least my parents, not my siblings) are unwilling to change anything. I tried not eating the meat part of the meal and my mother cried. I get all confused about how to accommodate my wish not to consume the flesh of my kind mothers and to follow other vows that deal with accepting what is offered me. So, Lama, to offend my parents seems a worse offense against vows i hold in such cases somehow. And they have kicked me out of the family and declared me dead to them before. I don't want that to happen because then any shot of creating connections between them and Dharma is gone and i am pretty much the only Buddhist around here. Also, if they develop anger at Dharma thinking that i am ungrateful because of it, that is not so good, either. I would rather take the negative karma of eating the meat than have them turn on the Dharma. I think i am complicating it too much, but what else is new! :wink: They are still holding grudges that i refuse to go on family fishing outings. If they knew i didn't catch fish as a child because i was off liberating worms they would be really upset! :)
Thanks, Lama.
Oh, and about slaughter houses, the videos will do it, but the smell is what really got me. Raised in farm country where lots of people do their own. Not pleasant. At all.

#12 Jyekundo

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 09:12 AM

Tashi Delek,
What we must remember in the discussion of vegetarianism is to avoid fanaticism in any way. To totally deny the sacredness of certain kingdoms around us diverts us from the path of the middle way and tends towards a pattern of fanatical behavior. It is our job as a human being (humane being) to support, honor and raise up ALL the kingdoms around us - the mineral ¦#150; the vegetable ¦#150; the animal. Human beings (humane beings) by ingesting and thus receiving the energy of those kingdoms below us, raise those kingdoms up through our thoughtful use of that energy towards meritorious works. That is why it is supremely important for us to be ever mindful in each moment, each moment, each moment of our thoughts, words and actions (thought leads to words and words lead to actions). In the synapse of our thought processes the energy provided us by ALL kingdoms has the potential of good or evil. It is up to the human being (a sentient humane being) to cognitively make that decision. To deny any of these kingdoms the honor of this process is an affront to the sacredness of their existence.
Warmest Dharma Blessings,
Kyejundo[/i]

#13 Atreju

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 11:39 AM

It is our job as a human being (humane being) to support, honor and raise up ALL the kingdoms around us - the mineral ¦#150; the vegetable ¦#150; the animal. Human beings (humane beings) by ingesting and thus receiving the energy of those kingdoms below us, raise those kingdoms up through our thoughtful use of that energy towards meritorious works.


I remember Hannibal Lector being very suppotive and honoring towards his beautiful female dinner course! :%
The first step to honour all sentient beings is not to eat them, to really help them by taking care of their environment by not polluting it and to provide them with 'vegetable' food so that other smaller animals' life isn't threatened by their hunger. That I believe is the compassionate way. By eating animals you don't help them at all, not "energetically", not concretely!

Greetings,
Atreju

#14 Angelique

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 01:59 PM

wow .. what a discussion ... what is the problem in eating meat ?
in the base .. we are all omnivorous and some animals (and plants) are carnivorous or insectivorous. They eat meat because it's their bunch and not kill by pleasure, but to survive. The human being have to eat meat and vegetables but insects and fishes. if we take this basically, it's his bunch.. his body neet all those food.

I take the exemple of native american before the settlers. They killed buffalos in a only way to survive, but before hunting they made some prayers to mother earth and to buffalos. After the hunting, they praid to thanx her and them. they never killed more than they need. That's a respect of nature and all beings.

in our days, this respect is lost .. we eat more than we have to, rare are the human that thank mother Earth and animals ... to feed them.

If we admit the way that the body needs some substance, where they're only in meat, but in the same way respect the animal we're eating .. I think that kill an animal wouldn't be a crime anymore !

I don't know if everybody will agree with me .. but I see this in that way ! I consider all what I eat prescious and sacred .. and I thank every day the Earth and Animals (if I eat meat) for the food they give to me ..

#15 Atreju

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 06:00 PM

Angelique,

please read Lama's posts on the subject. I can only say that to eat meat nowadays, when there are so many soya, vegetable substitutes, promotes further unneccesary killing of animals and fills your body with many unhealthy substances. To really respect animals would mean not to end their life, at least not to propagate such action.

Best wishes,
Atreju

#16 Angelique

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 07:08 PM

I've already read ! and this is a point where I don't totaly agree ... if the nature has made us as omnivorous then eating meat and vegetables, it's because we have a role in the circle of life. I'm just saying that if the predators don't eat meat anymore .. it could disturb the balance of the hierarchy of life. We has human,now, are destroying this balance, but if we don't exagerate and do what is have to be, the balance between predators and preys would come back. I know that you and maybe Lama Shenpen don't agree with me. But my point of view is based on the fact that in the nature, their are predators and preys, during all eras when humans didn't exist it was like that .. and each of them evolve as it have to !
All the problems result in a non respect and abuse of killing animals !

#17 Atreju

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 08:49 PM

Ok, there is killing and there is abuse of killing? That is one way of looking of it. I understand what you are saying. My view is: any killing is serious abuse of precious life (of any sentient being). Buddhist way of looking at this: every single sentient being's life is precious ("more precious that the wish-fullfilling jewel"), and "I will constantly practice holding (each of them) dear" (from the 8 Verses to Trasform the Mind). Which certainly means absence of any harmful actions towards animals. As long as we live in the part of the world where eating of meat isn't neccesary for our survival, killing of animals is not neccesary, more than that - it is not right, it is harmful action which should at 'all costs' be avoided, it is considered as accumulation of bad karma. This does not go for eskimos etc., or when we find ourselves in extremely dangerous and unfortunate conditions, in which sacrificing the life of an animal to save human lives could be justified.
You speak of disruption of balance in the circle of life. Indeed, there is disruption - the disastrously abnormal high levels of cutting down forests, the thoughtless pollution of the planet by our industry, traffic, our consumption-based way of life. Greed is the motor, ignorance is the driver. If humans stopped eating animals, there would be no adding up to this disruption! On the contrary, animals would not be raised to be slaughtered but to live in harmony with nature.
I don't agree with you that nature made us predators, historically in evolution that might be true, but now we humans have a quite well developed mind, we have 'grown up' and can think for ourselves - free from the animal instincts - and know better! To live truly compassionately should be our goal now. To respect all life completely from the depth of our heart!

Humans eat animals not because they need to in order to survive - but because we like the taste. That's all. The desire to satisfy our pleasures is the motor. And basic ignorance of our dull minds is the driver. :oops:

Best wishes,
Atreju

#18 Khyenrab

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 07:49 AM

Very strong motor, very bad driver! 8)

Khyenrab

#19 Angelique

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 04:11 PM

thanx you both ! ok you're true Atreju ..I know what you mean ! humans have so much things to change in it's life ...it will take so much time ! pfiou lol have a great work lol

best wishes !

#20 Atreju

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 09:30 PM

You are welcome. The only thing that I would add is that there truly is a lot to be done, .... but... each one of us can change *only one person* completely, entirely! :wink:
This way you are not only changing yourself, but a small part of the world and the people around you as well. That is, I believe, the right procedure - we shouldn't get confused by the immensity of the work to be done to change to whole wide world, but should sharply focus on what we *can* change right now. That's the best way you can help - no worries, no irritation - to give your best every day without thinking twice.

Sweet dreams :)
Atreju




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