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in a case of aggression

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Tashi Delek everybody,

 

If Bodhisattva is a head of state, for example. And he faces with an act of aggression against the people from his country. What would be his choice: to give an order to kill the aggressors and save a lot of people from his country or not to give such an order? Which means that he is responsible for his peoples' deaths (he had all opportunities to save a lot of his people murdered by aggressors, but he didn't use this chance). Isn't it accumulating of bad karma for him in both ways: in case when he gives an order to kill the aggressors and in case when he doesn't give this order?

 

I can understand that people have such a karma to be killed. But if Bodhisattva is responsible for them and gave a promise to protect their lives - he is obliged to defend them. May be he could consciously take a very bad karma on him by killing aggressors or this is also wrong way?

 

thank you

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Tashi Delek,

 

Isn't it accumulating of bad karma for him in both ways: in case when he gives an order to kill the aggressors and in case when he doesn't give this order?

Maybe we should ask the question "Who is really responsible for the situation to arise?" Surely not the president. Right? My undestanding is that if he makes the decision to save as many lives as possible, when it is clear that there will be casualties (that the threat is real and that time is runing out), there is no real negative karma on his part. If then the stategy is not the most efficient, if there is far too much "collateral" damage, that is another question... And who in this case issued the failing strategy? And so on...

 

I can understand that people have such a karma to be killed.

I wonder if this is the case. :roll: :?: In case of terrorism...

 

May be he could consciously take a very bad karma on him by killing aggressors or this is also wrong way?

As I see it, Bodhisattvas are the Peacemakers. Saving lives from the hands of crazy-minded terrorists may not be such a bad karma, no? Yet, this is an urgent action.

Ordinarily the actions of Bodhisattvas will very probably be to secure the grounds for longlasting trust and peaceful cooperation with everybody willing to be a part of the "peace alliance". Am I right? :<

 

Interesting questions... :P

 

Greetings,

Atreju

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Tashi Delek,

 

if I remember well, there is a similar example in past times of a Bodhisattva who saved people from a danger to be killed by killing the" bad guy", but he takes this decision only because there was no more other possibility according to the karma of the people and knowing that he will have to assume the negative consequences of this act. The main difference with us, ordinary sentient beings, is he does not act by emotivity (fear, anger...), but only because he wants to prevent the negative consequences for the killer ; but never he' will give the order to kill to somebody else! kwowing how awful it would be for the murderer)

I am waiting Lama Rinpoche's advice ...

 

with much love and prayer

Kyleen

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My ideea is if he is a bodhisattva he is not living in dual life and he is not acumulate karma bad or good

First of all, it depends on which type of Bodhisattva you are all talking about. A Bodhisattva who has only Bodhicitta, or a Bodhisattva who has Bodhicitta AND Emptiness?

Because in the first case, even though his motivation is very pure, he still can make mistake, beleiving in a way which can be mistaken. And he is still under the same law of karma. In the second case, the vision is much clearer, and not disturbed by usual disturbance. And he is away from the usual karma.

 

Yet, of course, a Bodhisattva can live in this dual world, and interact with all sentient beings! Otherwise, what would be his use??

A Bodhisattva makes the vow to remain in the samsara untill there is one being to help. His "mission" is to reborn and reborn again, whenever and wherever he can help.

 

The ways used by Arya Bodhisattvas are sometime very tricky and wise. From the Path of Vision (realization of Emptiness), a Bodhisattva can see 100 life time backward, and 100 life time forward. His decisions are then based on lot of informations, not just what ordinary beings can see. And a Buddha will have a perfect and complete view of all the karmic implications.

 

There a already certain example of a Bodhisattva killing a being for his sake (taking upon him the karma of murder to save him from accumulating very negative karm himself; as in the story of Kyleen).

 

We can state that a Bodhisattva will not act again anyone's benefit

 

Anyhow, it's very rare (to my simple knowledge) that a Bodhisattva become a president of a country who has to fight in war; since accessing that level of the sociaty usually involved rather obscure political activism, far from Dharma Ethic.

In the history, I have no example of Bodhisattva engaging in any war.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Tashi Delek,

 

His Holiness Dalai-Lama showed us a way how Bodhisattva being in a role of the head of state could manage with aggression. Nonviolence, patience and struggle in the limits of Ethics.

 

How about Bodhisattva who has only Bodhicitta, and who has a lot of obscurations yet? He hasn't realized Emptiness yet and he can't see people's lifetimes. Let's suppose, occasionally he is involved in a war (an act of aggression against group of people he is responsible of). That was karma that he was involved in this situation. What is more ethical in such case? Not to kill and not to give such an orders to other people in any case - even if his people are waiting for such an activities from his side?

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Tashi Delek,

 

If you are refering to concrete situations, not hypothetical, I think it is a question of the politics of the particular state, government. If a certain region (nation) is trying to become independent, which every nation or people has the right to, but the state is completely against it, too quickly acting with military power to oppose such ideas or political decisions (based on fundamental freedoms of each nation), then of course conflicts are inevitable. First political, but eventually - out of despair - certain people who are more extreme minded, will think of more drastic actions, and soon we have a hostage situation... When a nation or a people is oppressed, this is the usual course of actions. Of course, for the State, these are extremists, part of the global terrorism, which is not necessarily the case... Blind nationalism of the greater nations (states) easily produce such conflicting conditions, wanting to uphold their power, they don't hesitate to use their "iron hand", being completely disrespectful of genuine interests and aspirations of smaller nations... We should look for deeper karmic roots of terrorist acts in places where the most power is generated... Right? :roll:

 

Greetings,

Atreju

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We should look for deeper karmic roots of terrorist acts in places where the most power is generated... Right?

 

Of course, every aggression like terrorism, act of invasion, war and etc. has its karmic causes. And all people who are involved there – even those who think that they are innocent victims of aggression – have karmic reasons for it. That’s no doubt.

 

My thought was if somebody has found himself/herself in this situation (terrorist act for example) – what is the most precious decision in this situation for other’s and for own karma?

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Tashi Delek,

 

My thought was if somebody has found himself/herself in this situation (terrorist act for example) – what is the most precious decision in this situation for other’s and for own karma?

My guess is that we both lack the realization of Emptiness... :D:P

 

Best regards,

Atreju

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My thought was if somebody has found himself/herself in this situation (terrorist act for example) – what is the most precious decision in this situation for other’s and for own karma?

You cannot change the karma of others. If they have created the karma to die in a terrorist attack, they will.

Yet, what can change, is what someone will decide to do atthat right moment, out of her free will. Therefore, to kill someone if the motivation is genuinely to help that person who would accumulate terrible negative karma of killing several persons; this might find sense. But it clearly requires to have Realized Bodhicitta and Emptiness to be sure of the 'cleanness' of the motivation.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Therefore, to kill someone if the motivation is genuinely to help that person who would accumulate terrible negative karma of killing several persons; this might find sense. But it clearly requires to have Realized Bodhicitta and Emptiness to be sure of the 'cleanness' of the motivation.

What you are saying is that you have to be "out of reach" of your own karma, your motivation must be pure Bodhicitta, and you must *know* the karmic history-future of what is taking place, to "stop" somebody generating (even more) negative karma (if that is the case)?

But isn't it inevitable that a terorrist who is about to kill any number of people, is headed in the direction of heavy negative karma?? And if somebody ends his life (this will undoubtedly be negative karma on his part, if not yet Boddhichitta-Emptiness-Realized), but the (much heavier) negative karma of the terorrist is thereafter prevented? No?

 

Thank you,

Atreju

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Tashi Delek Atreju,

 

I don't understand why a Bodhisattva totally enlightened and seeing the karma of every body, knowing that these sentient beings have the karma to die in a terrorist act because of devil past actions - why he would kill the terrorist if all the concerned people will die in any case of violent death ? he would kill the terrorist for nothing, , or will he have to kill each terrorist he will meet; it is totally absurd... to kill isn't and will never be a solution to the violence in the world!

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas show us the path, but cannot walk at our place.

we can hope that people who experience violent death will understand that killing is something no to do to other sentient beings. And the bad guy, maybe will understand one day the same thing : every one must respect the life.

Many soldiers or inhabitants who had to endure a war became pacifist . Not every body has created the causes to meet Buddha's Dharma ans his teachings on non-violence.

with much love and prayer, Kyleen

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Tashi Delek!

 

There a already certain example of a Bodhisattva killing a being for his sake (taking upon him the karma of murder to save him from accumulating very negative karm himself; as in the story of Kyleen).

 

But if that Bodhisattva has realised Emptiness, he doesn't accumulate karma, does he? So does this story speak about a Bodhisattva who hasn't yet realised Emptiness, or are my views wrong? :wink:

 

Thank you.

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I don't understand why a Bodhisattva  totally enlightened and seeing the karma of every body,  knowing that  these sentient beings have the karma to die in a terrorist act because of  devil  past actions  - why he would kill the terrorist if  all the concerned people will die in any case of violent death ?  he would kill the terrorist for nothing

 

Tashi Delek,

As you yourself have written before - he would (by killing him out of pure Compassion) save that terrorist from accumulating heavy heavy negative karma, that would certainly lead him to be reborn in hell realms for the next few eons or such...

As I imagine it, it must be one of the worst karmic scenarios to blow yourself up in public, thinking: "May all the people around me instantly die, may there be no survivors and may their families live in sadness and fear for eternity..." Surely, for doing that you must get a free one way ticket - the train instantly leaving for Avichi Hell!

To prevent such an act... it would not be for nothing, I think. No? :?

 

Better to (always :) ) think thoughts like:

 

"May those who are of poor ethical discipline be disgusted and become constantly intent on the extinction of their vices. May they reach a fortunate state of existence, and may their vows remain unbroken there.

May they be learned and cultured, receive alms, and have provisions. May their mindstream be pure and their fame be proclaimed in every direction."

- Arya Shantideva

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What you are saying is that you have to be "out of reach" of your own karma, your motivation must be pure Bodhicitta, and you must *know* the karmic history-future of what is taking place, to "stop" somebody generating (even more) negative karma (if that is the case)?

No. What I said is not to be "out of reach from karma" but to make a decision which is genuinely for the sake of others.

Before Bodhicitta and Emptiness, our mind can be blinded by many disturbed mental factors. We can act thinking it is for the good of someone, yet completely mistaken.

 

But if that Bodhisattva has realised Emptiness, he doesn't accumulate karma, does he?

True; we can say that after realizing Emptiness, the karma doesn't apply.

 

why he would kill the terrorist if all the concerned people will die in any case of violent death ? he would kill the terrorist for nothing

Not for nothing, but to save him (the terrorist) from accumulating negative karma of murder. The point if not to kill a murderer to save the future-victims, who will anyhow experience the karma they have created, with this murderer or an other, or by accident.

This is where one must have Emptiness to be sure of the validity of such act. If a Bodhisattva would decide to end a life, he would be sure of the benefice.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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I would like to ask if there is such a thing as a "non-karmicaly" induced accident?

 

And also, if somebody has accumulated the karma to be a victim of a terrorist attack or a leathal accident, what kind of acts or states of mind has he/she "commited"?

 

Thank you

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