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billytiss

Desire and love

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I have a question, weather it is possible to make love without desire?

 

Is any kind of desire acceptable...so I will put my question more precisely. If desire arises and is experienced as pleasurable...but at the end I do not crave for it is this ok?

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Tashi Delek,

I think if love is based on understanding of equality of all beings and their deep unbearable suffering then one kind of desire is arising. But if love is based on distinguishing persons as pleasurable, not pleasurable, neutral then different kind of desire arises. The trick is what we believe as pleasurable “at the end” could become neutral or even not pleasurable.

So, we have here two types of desire: first is based on “unconditioned” love towards all beings, which doesn’t define them on pleasurable/not pleasurable, second is based on “conditioned” and “limited by our preferences” love. And we are free to choose what kind of desire is acceptable for us: unlimited or limited… :wink:

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while making love, does any specific motivation help not to grow attachment. More precisely can making love be transformed into spiritual progress? :roll:

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I think that usually people are making love only with desire motivation(which is one of the suffering's causes). On spiritual Path we must controll our emotions and desires. But in reality it is the opposite - we are under control :x

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But still, why some lamas are making love and nothing is wrong...and I heard that some of then need sexual activity for realizing certain topics. I have a feeling if including all sentient being in a field of compasion helps to eracicate attachment, but still you include your partner into field of compassion. So when making love with partner your heart is open and loving, like with others, just that with others you are not intimite :roll:

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Sex is limited, while love isn`t. You should be aware that in one look beetwen two people could be more love than in sex itself. And yes, sex could be used to spice some relationship, or even as a tool, but can`t be the essence of it. And you know, how is usually with spicing the things - instead of improve them often spoil them. And if not, at the end the taste get lost anyway and stays love, if there is any.

 

 

Simona

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But still, why some lamas are making love and nothing is wrong...and I heard that some of then need sexual activity for realizing certain topics.
May be because they have Realised Emptiness and Bodhicitta!? ;)

 

Thank you.

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But still, why some lamas are making love and nothing is wrong...and I heard that some of then need sexual activity for realizing certain topics.
May be because they have Realised Emptiness and Bodhicitta!? ;)

 

Dear Gigu,

would you be so kind as to explain "the benefit for all sentient beings" such activities might bring? 8O

Thank you and all the best!

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would you be so kind as to explain "the benefit for all sentient beings" such activities might bring?

Sorry, but which activities?

 

Thank you.

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Tashi Delek,

 

for ex. sexual activities of those who have already relised Emptiness and Bodichitta 8

Some practices involve our inner energies, with the goal to bring us in front of the highest - most subtle - levels of our mind and, ultimatly, in front of the Clear Light. Those energies can be put into movement by some spiritual activities, among which some 'look like' sexual act.

But, in such specific case, sexual organs are used simply as a tool, without any desire for a dual relationship.

 

Many people make the mistake to see Tantra in the other way around. They want to keep their desire as they are, exercice their desires, and call this a spiritual practice. It's not correct.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Tashi Delek,

 

Talking it over with the others we have concluded that we do not know exactly what the terms "no sexual misconduct" in the Five Lay Vows stand for. Besides adultery, any act that harms another, having sex at the wrong time such as full moon, Mahayana Precepts day; having sex in improper (holy) places... Is that all?

 

Thank you for the explanations,

Khyenrab

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Besides adultery, any act that harms another, having sex at the wrong time such as full moon, Mahayana Precepts day; having sex in improper (holy) places... Is that all?
Isn't it already enought? ;)

 

"any act that harms another" you can include all type of perversion in this, such as inceste, pedophilia, ... We could also add "all activities which increase desire and attachements" since this is harmful too, which would include sexual actions by "improper doors", in excessice amount, etc...

 

I think most of people spiritually engaged have a common sense about what is "misconduct" versus ethical (also regarding reducing the amount of negative karma); yet, have difficulties accepting that they will have to work on their desire.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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The following quotes are taken from one of the most important termas ever transmitted by Guru Rinpoche or Padma Sambhava. It is known as the Dakini Teachings and it is a treasure map to the salvation of one's soul.

 

"Sexual Misconduct ...

There are also occasions on which it is unsuitable to have intercourse even with your rightful companion. ...

3. It is unsuitable to have intercourse in an inappropriate orifice, such as engaging in the manner of animals.

Tsogyal, ... As before, the act of sexual misconduct is consummated by means of the four completing aspects, and again there are three types of results.

1. Through the result of ripening you will be reborn in the three lower realms. Even if you do take rebirth in the higher realms, you will have fights with your spouse and so forth.

2. The dominant result is that even in future lives your helpers, spouse, and so forth will be unresponsive and show various acts of ingrattitude.

3. The result corresponding to the cause is that your unwholesome habitual tendencies will cause you to take pleasure in sexual misconduct.

Tsogyal, if you give up these acts and refrain from engaging in them, you will obtain the opposites of their results, so abandoning them is of great importance. ..."

(Dakini Teachings, pp. 39-40)

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Tashi Delek,

 

Some clarifications needed...

consummated by means of the four completing aspects, and again there are three types of results.

Could you please explain what are the four completing aspects?

Through the result of ripening you will be reborn in the three lower realms.

And "ripening"?

 

Best regards

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It is considered as impure due to the release of dead blood and flesh...

 

And like this people can practice patience during some days! ;)

 

Thank you.

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Here is one poem by Chogyam Trungpa about love:

 

 

In love

i feel both pain and pleasure

which is quite clearly seen

in the nature of dakinis.

Sometimes it is tedious,

tedious because you are hopeful,

hopeful for something to happen.

Sometimes it is creative

and your heart is open to creativity.

These two manifestations

are clearly seen

alternatively,

pain and pleasure alike.

It is what is.

That is what i have found.

In pain there's no sickness

because pain is aroused by creative forces.

Thanks to dakinis.

The same goes for pleasure,

the same goes for love.

Love is something profound

something deeper -

in fact it's the flow of the universe.

Without love nothing is created.

...........................................

 

It is painful as though someone

controlled the beat of my heart,

as though someone had stolen my heart.

But underneath lies inspiration.

So i discover

that she who had stolen my heart

is the true shakhti

who removed all possessiveness.

People can die for love quite unvoluntarily.

People have such courage in love.

Pain and pleausure are one in love.

For it includes negative thoughts,

possessiveness,

impermanence.

This love and the nature of love

can never be changed

by anyone.

It is the dance of the dakinis.

It is the dance of the kague lineage.

As historically gampopa,

living in a monastery,

the father of the kague school,

let loose his three precious disciples,

let them dance and

compose music

in teh state of ecstasy.

..............

 

This poem is the discovery

of love in courage and freedom

glory be to the subject-

poetry.

 

Spring 1969

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