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Khyenrab

Let's Talk Bodhisattvacharyavattara :)

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Hello everyone,

 

I would like to talk about Bodhisattvacharyavattara, it would be very useful I think; I will just start with a few questions and we'll see where the discussion takes us 8)

 

(http://www.buddhistinformation.com/a_guide_to_the_bodhisattva_way_o.htm)

 

In the 12. 'stanza' of the first chapter of the 'book', "the wise lord Maitreya" is mentioned ("he taught the incalculable benefits of the spirit of Awakening to Sudhana") - isn't Maitreya the 'far distant' future Buddha? If so, what is he 'doing here'? :wink: Who is Sudhana?

 

Also - who are the Tathagathas, and what would be the difference between the buddhas and the bodhisattvas. Isn't a buddha also a bodhisattva?

 

Who 'exactly' are Sugatas? What is Dharmakaya ("the Sugatas are endowed with Dharmakaya")? Who are the Lords of the Sages? :?

 

Best regards

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Guest lodreu

Dear members,

 

I'm not a specialist in all these terms, it's sometimes a bit confusing to have different names for one term, in different langages.

 

Sugata means "Gone into bliss", it refers to Buddhas. As well as Tathagatas. A Buddha is sometimes also named as Lord of Sages.

Buddhas have three types of bodies which are manifestations of the quality of their Mind. We usually see only one of them, the Nirmanakaya (emanation body). Then there is the Sambhogakaya (enjoyment body) and Dharmakaya (truth body). The Dharmakaya is only experienced by Buddhas.

 

Subahu was a specific person having requested a special discourse by the Buddha, in which the Tataghata demonstrated the benefits of the Awakaning Mind to followers of the Hinayana, or small vehicle. This discourse is the sutra "Subahuparipriccha sutra".

 

Maitreya is refered to the Future Buddha, in the sense that he will manifest as Shakyamuni Buddha did. Showing the signs of Buddhahood in the same way as Shakyamuni did, and be recognize as the founder in his time.

But he is already teaching beings having special realizations and/or the karma to have a connection with him.

 

Buddhas have mastered all realizations, Boddhisattvas are on the way. A Boddhisattva has realized Boddhichita and Emptiness, but he hasn't purified all obscurations. He is progressing on the way to Buddhahood, where nothing remains to be abandonned, purified or realized.

 

I hope I was clear and I didn't forget anything.

Best regards,

Lodreu.

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Thank you for your explanations, things are much clearer now. If I may, I will ask some more questions, that I think could also be of general interest. :)

 

How many Buddhas are there (watching over us)? I have read about it and the numbers mentioned were: "innumerable", "countless", "infinite" have gone beyond, etc... And I suppose They must have some kind of hierarchy or order of individual obligations and mutual activity and group cooperation as seen in many pictures or mandalas? And how many (working) Bodhisattvas are there?

 

When will Maitreya manifest, when is 'His time'?

 

I was a little bit puzzled (and that's why I asked the question abouth the difference between the buddhas and the bodhisattvas), when I read this paragraph in chapter five:

 

"The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions. Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them."

 

When considering this, one could also conclude that they (both 'categories') are 'fully' Enlightened...

 

With the best of wishes,

MindOnly

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How many Buddhas are there (watching over us)?
Yes, a lot. But not all of them did manifested as "hostorical Buddhas.
And I suppose They must have some kind of hierarchy or order of individual obligations and mutual activity and group cooperation as seen in many pictures or mandalas?
In Buddhism, there is no hierarchy of power, but level of responsibility and may be field of activity. But, this is not based on any "level of Buddha"! Because once you reach Buddhahood, you have all the same qualities of all Buddhas.
And how many (working) Bodhisattvas are there?
I can't find my address book anymore! ;) A lot anyhow...
When will Maitreya manifest, when is 'His time'?
In many many years. It is written that Buddha Maitreya will appear to humans when the life span will be only of 10 years!
"The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions. Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them."
There are ten main levels of Bodhisattvas. From the first one, the gross level of misconception is removed by their direct perception of Emptiness. Then, from that first level, they can see 100 lives before and after, see 100 Buddhas, have 100 Emanations of themselves, etc... and it increases at each level, till the 10th where the activities of such Bodhisattvas are similar to the ones of a Buddha. From that point of view (as compared with ourselves, simple human beings) their are "unobstructed". But in fact, Bodhisattvas have still some work to do before to really reach Buddha state, which is totally unobstructed and omniscient.

 

Hope this help, Gelong T. Shenphen

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I know that these questions are a little bit over our heads and should not be the focus of our attention, but if we are making an enquiry, let's be as thorough as we can. If I may ask...

 

It is written that Buddha Maitreya will appear to humans when the life span will be only of 10 years!

... when will that be? And what does that mean - lifespan of 10 years? People in the future will die at the age of ten? 8O

By the way, there are people in the world who say that Maitreya Buddha is already trying to enter the everyday world of men right now "as we speak", just type Maitreya in your Google search engine, you'll see...

 

But in fact, Bodhisattvas have still some work to do before to really reach Buddha state, which is totally unobstructed and omniscient.!

And what happens when they do? Do they stop entering 'the Avichi hell' and start 'recruiting' the new 'greenhorn' bodhisattvas? That's what I would do, he he.

 

Thank you for the answers, most helpful!

Best regards[/size]

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... when will that be? And what does that mean - lifespan of 10 years? People in the future will die at the age of ten? 8O
Yes. We are coming from ages when a human life was several hundreds years of life span, with a much taller body, and we will end up with a smaller body living only 10 years.
By the way, there are people in the world who say that Maitreya Buddha is already trying to enter the everyday world of men right now "as we speak", just type Maitreya in your Google search engine, you'll see...
Buddha Maitreya, out of His unlimited Compassion, might be helping and Emanating throughout the whole Universe since long already... but surely not advertising about himself on the Internet! The web site about Maitreya (i.e. an American man copying the Buddhist stuff, making his Sangha, being also the reincarnation of Vajradhara, Lama Tsongkhapa, etc. etc.) is such an imposture! The worst, is that some people seems to believe him 8O

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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We are coming from ages when a human life was several hundreds years of life span' date=' with a much taller body, and we will end up with a smaller body living only 10 years.

I must say, with all respect, I find this very hard to believe, people in the world are growing older and older due to 'beneficial' environment, etc.. And as far as I know, we are now much taller than in, say the time of Jesus! Historically this is the accepted 'truth'. Have I missed something?? As far as I know, there is only one Shaqulle O' Neill! :wink:

Of, course, if we are thinking in 'eons upon eons' of time, it could be.

 

... but surely not advertising about himself on the Internet! The web site about Maitreya (i.e. an American man copying the Buddhist stuff' date=' making his Sangha, being also the reincarnation of Vajradhara, Lama Tsongkhapa, etc. etc.) is such an imposture! The worst, is that some people seems to believe him 8O .

I agree, he looks like he 's just escaped from a lunatic assilum! Probably has! :wink:

I was not refering to that man, there is a huge, widespread, international organisation, called Share International, who has, for 30 years now, been announcing that Maitreya, the World Teacher, who is expected by all religions as Buddha Maitreya (In Buddhism), the Christ (in Christianity), Imam Mahdi (Islam), Messiah (expected by the Jews)..., has been trying to enter the world of men (that is all one and the same being, with a personal name - Maitreya). But, they say, He is asking for our invitation, to start his world mission (without infringing our free will). He is already giving his teachings: if I remember correctly - detachment, honesty of mind and sincerity of spirit. Also - sharing of the world resources - rich nations helping poor nations, living as brothers, cooperation instead of competition, etc... I am a pretty sceptical person, but I must admit that I am very much drawn to these ideas.

 

Quote from the site:

"How," Maitreya asks, "can you be content with the modes within which you now live: when millions starve and die in squalor; when the rich parade their wealth before the poor; when each man is his neighbor's enemy; when no man trusts his brother? For how long must you live thus, my friends? For how long can you support this degradation?"

 

and I really like this one:

 

"The problems of mankind are real but solvable. The solution lies within your grasp. Take your brother's need as the measure for your action and solve the problems of the world. There is no other course."

 

Best regards :)

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I must say, with all respect, I find this very hard to believe, people in the world are growing older and older due to 'beneficial' environment, etc.. And as far as I know, we are now much taller than in, say the time of Jesus! Historically this is the accepted 'truth'. Have I missed something??
Probably yes! ;) We are usually thinking only about what we can see with the eyes on this human world, this planet, this tiny point in the Universe. We forget that the manifested World is much much wider, and is composed on many layers of existence... As I said, at the beginning of this big eon, the human life (not just on this planet, at the level we know now) was very long, with much less problem. As we are in 'degenerated times', some troubles appear and the life gets shorter. The illusion of some years more or less due to technology is irrelevant.
I am a pretty sceptical person, but I must admit that I am very much drawn to these ideas.
These ideas exist as a basis in most religion. Not difficult to display them. The good words about a limited topic doesn't make automatically any organisation 'trustable'. Tradition is what we must follow, for it has brough countless beings to Happiness...

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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I would like to ask a few more questions if I may.

 

In the last chapter of the book: who are Manjughosa, Protector Manjunatha and Manjursi?

 

I have been wondering about Boddhisattvas, their 'departments' if that's the right word? When one decides to be, become a Bodhisattva, takes the vows and starts practicing bodhicitta in 'a big way' to 'everybody he meets', there are thousands ways one can help. A particular person has got a problem and you see it as a problem, but not always will you be able to help him/her. But that is not the point. The point is that even Bodhisattvas must have different 'fields of endevour', just like everyday jobs. One is a doctor, the other is a judge, and another a gardener. What I am asking is, do these different fields also have different Guides: 'doctor bodhisattvas' having the Medicine Buddha, 'judge bodhisattva' having another? Because the skills and the 'logic of wisdom' is so very different in the particular fields. Energy they are working with has a different quality, which is most appropriate and beneficial in their field of endevour and not in another (therein it might be insufficient, without any impact).

 

Thank you.

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Guest lodreu
In the last chapter of the book: who are Manjughosa, Protector Manjunatha and Manjursi?
If i am not mistaken these are names to name Manjushri, most probably under different aspects of his activity.
When one decides to be, become a Bodhisattva, takes the vows and starts practicing bodhicitta in 'a big way' to 'everybody he meets',
There is a difference between aspiration to Bodhicitta and actualisation of Bodhicitta. When we try to develop Bodhicitta, we need some times to actualize it really. It is said that whatever a Bodhisattva is doing is for the benefit of others, even breathing. It means there is no space in a Bodhisattva mind for any selfish activities.

 

Nevertheless the possibilty to help beings thoroughly comes with the actualization of the Perfection of Wisdom, which is the realization of Emptiness. At this point the outer activities become aspects of spiritual and skilfull means. To excell in on of these activities is just mundaine Wisdom, far from Ultimate Wisdom.

 

The Bodhisattva might try to develop Mundaines Wisdoms to benefit others, but will engage himself in the deepening of the Ultimate Wisdom and try to remove all obstacles to Enlightenment as his main practice.

Further he will be in this path, and more the way he will appear and be able to help us will depend on our own Karma.

Without Karma no contact with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, because we will not have created the causes to perceive their presence.

:roll:

 

Best regards,

Lodreu.

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But don't you think that a great composer and a great statesman would have different Guides? Different qualities of Wisdom? Bethoveen's producing the Ninth Symphony is a different deal then Churchill's saving Europe from Hitler... ? Because if they cannot be called wise, then who was?? Maybe they weren't ultimately wise, but relatively they must have been...

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... Churchill's saving Europe from Hitler... ? Because if they cannot be called wise, then who was??
Are you saying that Churchill was wise when "saving" Europe from Hitler??

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Are you saying he wasn't??

I am not saying that he was wise for fighting Hitler, any fool would make that kind of decision, what was so incredible was Churchill's undaunted courage to defeat Hitler until the end. It was a great, great task that he accomplished, it took great power and strenght to hold the whole nation in great - almost fanciful - hope and trust until it was over. That was wisdom, yes. No fool could carry out such a task

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This is not the place to discuss such topic. But obvioulsy, there are lot of shadow in your knowledge of the history... Things sometime have happen in a very different way as they are told in school books!

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Have I stepped on someone's toes, yesterday a practitionner now a mere taker of refuge :wink:

Things are never exactly how they are taught in schools... just by watching a few docummentaries on Churchill and his role in the Second WW, I would say he was wise, although a little bit of a drunk, a nasty swallower of food, and a little bit hot tempered. Those were extremely difficult times! But if you listen to his speaches, during and after the war, he was a great 'visionary' for United Europe etc. where justice etc. would flourish. As a battle-commander he made many many mistakes, having problems with his ministers who refused to listen to his poor 'strategic ideas' etc., etc. But still... I think this should be the place to discuss it, let's discuss wisdom and foolishness, I am up to it. :)

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Have I stepped on someone's toes, yesterday a practitionner now a mere taker of refuge :wink:
No, no, I realize that the 'ranking' wasn't appropriate i.e. after 10 posts one became "Refuge", and only 20 already "practitioner"... Too quick steps! ;)

Then... It might be based on how we define "wise".

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Oh, definitions... Please, just tell me, who would you consider wise - a European (forget Lamas, gurus, Gandhis, Mother Theresas...)? I aslo forgot you guys were French! Sorry for that. :lol:

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Oh, definitions... Please, just tell me, who would you consider wise - a European (forget Lamas, gurus, Gandhis, Mother Theresas...)?
For the moment, I don't see many wise people in Europe or in the world; I mean, a public figure.

Wise people are not given the chance to express themselves that much; because it goes against the rules of governance of this wolrd, based on money and power... :cry:

 

I aslo forgot you guys were French! Sorry for that. :lol:
This is irrelevant. First because as Administrator of this site, it can be people from different countries. Second because in Dharma, country doesn't mean much. The mind has no country. (and "guys" is a slang word :P )

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For the moment, I don't see many wise people in Europe; I mean, a public figure. May be Kofi Hanan?
Yes, I would agree! I would mention him, but then again he is not European, he is from Kenya I think and works in NY. Then there were: Leonardo Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Mozart, Bethoveen, Martin Luther King Jr., Abraham Lincoln - these people were wise! They couldn't have done the important work without being wise. That goes for Churchill as well. You see, but there are those who had/have 'glimpses' of wisdom - such as Einstein, Gandhi and recently -Clinton (nevermind Monica - she was a village bycicle - everyone has had a ride!). I just wouldn't want 'wisdom' to be abstract, let's be real, concrete.

 

This is irrelevant. First because as Administrator, it can be people from different countries.
I was kidding!!

 

Best regards :D

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I have another question about Bodhisattvacaryavattara, if I may.

 

What does the term "preta" mean?

 

From the fourth chapter:

5. It has been said that a person who intended to give away even a tiny thing but does not do so, becomes a preta.

 

From the tentht chapter:

18. May the Pretas always be satiated, bathed, and refreshed by streams of milk pouring from the hand of noble Avalokiteshvara.

 

Thank you.

Best regards.

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Guest lodreu

Tashi Delek,

 

Among the 6 realms of rebirth, one of them is the "Preta" realm. it's one of the lower realms of rebirth. Lower in the sense that there is much suffering in this realm, and little chance to find Dharma there. And even if Dharma is found, the craving for food and appeasement of suffering is so important, that it might be un-noticed.

 

The Pretas could be described as craving spirits. They experience suffering due to their impossibility to find food, or their unhability to use it.

 

They are usually depicted with small and fragile members, big stomachs. Some of them are described as having tiny mouth.

They move with great difficulties, and experience great pain in their bodies and articulations. They are searching for food all the time, but have inner and outer obstacle to get sustained.

Either when they approach the food it becomes horrible, rotten and diseappear, or they cannot eat or drink due to physical malformations. Also they experience great pain when they have eaten some.

 

It is said that avarice and craving in this life are the main causes to get reborn in the Preta realm.

 

Best regards,

Lodreu.

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Thank you again for the replay, very interesting.

 

But don't you think that this:"It has been said that a person who intended to give away even a tiny thing but does not do so, becomes a preta." is a rather cruel 'karma rule'.

I understand the principle but if it is valid literally it seems like a horrific injustice to someone who has a bad day and promises something but later doesn't fulfill the promise... and the next week he is already a Preta, a suffering craving spirit in the middle of scorching Hells - completely and absolutely God-forsaken soul in Christian terms.

I understand these kinds of 'exaggerations' as strict warnings regarding the law of cause and effect. Because, let me tell you, I would have become a preta at least two dozens of times last year alone if it were true. :wink:

 

Best regards

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Guest lodreu

Tashi Delek,

 

I think Lama Shenphen Rinpoche mentionned it here already, karma is complex, and should not be taken lightly. It's not because we are under the rain and do not get a lighting on our head that we are safe in the future ;-).

 

"It has been said that a person who intended to give away even a tiny thing but does not do so, becomes a preta."

I think in this case we have to consider the effect undisturbed. Just by this cause, the negative energy created by the action of not giving what was promised, because of attachment, grasping, avarice, .... is enough to take rebirth in the Preta realm.

 

Nevertheless and fortunately, Karma is not defined once for all, and this effect can be modified if we become aware of this tendency, or seldom action, and regret it sincerily (in that case to fear the consequences can help :wink: ). The negativity in relation with this action will also depend on the practices we are engaged in, the amount of positivity we create before we die, the purification we will do, how much we will repeat or not, etc ...

 

Best regards,

Lodreu

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Tashi Delek,

 

Nevertheless and fortunately, Karma is not defined once for all, and this effect can be modified if we become aware of this tendency, or seldom action, and regret it sincerily (in that case to fear the consequences can help :wink: ). The negativity in relation with this action will also depend on the practices we are engaged in, the amount of positivity we create before we die, the purification we will do, how much we will repeat or not, etc ...
Yes, the 'law' or the 'rule' mentioned is taken from a larger 'codex' and not to be taken literally. That's just what I had in mind, as you wrote/explained above.

Causing the effects by not sharing anything and by being absolutely selfish in every relation you have with others or with animals, this is the open road to Preta realms, that seems acceptable.

 

Sometimes we get 'instant karma' (to use Lennon's words) I think, when we are a little bit selfish (bad day, bad weather or just bad hair day :wink: ), and the next three days one has to pay off the debt it seems, things, surroundings get harder and more difficult than usual... And that really makes you watchful and careful in the future. Does Buddhism have a (more specific) word for that?

 

All the very best.

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Guest lodreu

Tashi Delek

And that really makes you watchful and careful in the future. Does Buddhism have a (more specific) word for that?

If it is about being watchful then we could call it to be aware. At a first level aware of the consequences of our actions, then of the action itself, till we can become aware of the moment preceding the action.

 

Best regards,

lodreu.

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