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Re: Karma = Dharma?

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Tashi Delek

I have a small question. What is the actual difference between Karma and Dharma? What bothers me can be described as following: on Saturday teachings in “Lojong” in the 8th verse the Dharma is interpreted as an action, on the other hand also the Karma is defined as an action (cause and effect). And if I look a little bit broader our experience of the reality depends on our Karma. Than the Dharma (the understanding of reality and its teaching) we chose and act according depends also on our Karma? That means that in some way our Karma is our Dharma and our Dharma is our Karma. So where - what is the actual “difference”? Am I on the right track? Can anybody give me a clue! In what way this two terms are not equivalent?

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Tashi Delek,

 

Dharma means the Teachings of the Buddha. Karma is the law of cause and effect, or action.

Dharma can also mean any activity, as Rinpoche explained, but not in general (that's how I understood, anyway).

 

I hope that answers your question o:) , but please check the Encyclopedia for more. :)

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From His Holiness the Dalaï-Lama:

 

The Meaning of Chö or Dharma

 

The Tibetan word Chos is known as Dharma in Sanskrit, and it means "to hold." All the objects of this world which have definable identities of their own are known as Dharmas. There is another meaning of Dharma, and this is: "to hold back from impending disaster." It is in this sense that Dharma can mean "religion"; religion, that is to say, as opposed to secularism. Generally speaking, any noble activity of mind, body and speech denote Dharma or religion—which can save or hold one back from disaster. One is considered to practice religion if one implements these activities.

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Tashi Delek dear all,

 

In previous lives we have created enough merits so that in this very special one we are able to study and practice the Dharma. And this might be our last chance before a long, long time...

 

Thanks to this study and practice, we are able to:

 

- purify our previously accumulated negative karmas,

- peel away veils over veils over veils of ignorance,

- accumulate and dedicate merits to all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas,

- conquer our agitated minds,

- realize the true nature of all things,

- stop creating new karmas (positive or negative) and therefore the causes for future fortunate or unfortunate rebirth,

- become free from samsara and finally,

- awaken our spirits from this long lasting, painful and agitated dream, for the good of all sentient beings.

 

At least that's how I wish it will be... :wink:

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Tashi Delek

 

Thank you for your suggestions. It is true I do not spend enough time with books. :oops: So this was fine refreshment. :roll: But never the less I still feel some emptiness (not desired one) in my understanding. :(

The dharma is a tree to lean on – a religion for emancipation. They are empty (do not exist independently) that means that they are interdependent. Apart from one dharma no other dharma can exist. One can not run away from certain dharma. As in one dharma are seeds of all others dharmas. If dharma is empty and interdependent than it is also probably a product of mind. They are the path that is showing the truth of liberation. So they contain the essence of enlightenment. It is said that for each karma there is an according dharma.*

On the other hand what I can perceive as karma can be described similarly if not equally. As I am not beyond my karma all what my life is about is my karma. This is all I can perceive. I can get rid off many things but this stays and on this I can lean on as it is here persistently. So it is my religion – it suggests answers and question. As it is not possible to run away from it that means it is interdependent. Of what?! - (probably of other karmas and as it look also dharmas). All what is my karma heritage (past, present and future karma) is a product of my mind. And not to forget my karma is my way of truth and a possibility of enlightenment. So each karma results in according dharma?

So, as far I can see, at least on conventional level, for dharma and karma can be used same descript ional words – tools. 8) So what I can experience is my karma but as this is my guide it can also act as my dharma. It is true that for me personally most of the time karma brings questions and dharma answers. But this can hardly be considered to be a rule.

And if for a moment we take a look at life of Buddha Shakyamuni, as due to my knowledge or lack of it, He can be perceived as “a first person who obtained enlightenment”. :D :?: Where was dharma for His enlightenment? Am I to ego to say it comes from His own karmical experience? :oops:

“So where is here a problem?” My lack of knowledge, mistaken - poor reasoning or “just” the limitations of the convention level of thinking that this writing is abiding in?

What is distinguishing them apart?

 

 

*(Mostly excerpts from Dharma teachings.)

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Tashi Delek,

 

If dharma is empty and interdependent than it is also probably a product of mind. They are the path that is showing the truth of liberation. So they contain the essence of enlightenment.

I guess Dharma is the product of the mind, but of the Enlightened minds of the Buddhas :D .

 

“a first person who obtained enlightenment”. :D :?: Where was dharma for His enlightenment? Am I to ego to say it comes from His own karmical experience? :oops:

Shakyamuni Buddha was the fourth Buddha of this fortunate eon, before Him there were Kasyapa, Kanakamuni and Krakucchanda Buddha.

 

From the point of view of karma, you are beyond personal karma, when you realize Emptiness, yet still, the consciousness has to be cleared completely to the point of full Enlightenment, when one reaches an Omniscient state of mind. The experience is "individual" we could say, I am no expert, but this seems to answer your question. After Emptiness, there are still further causes such as continuous meditation/absorption in the experience of Emptiness, and accumulation of merits by practicing the Six Perfections (Generosity, Patience, Joyous Effort...) for the sake of all sentient beings; and these causes will bring you to the final Result. :)

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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On the other hand what I can perceive as karma can be described similarly if not equally. As I am not beyond my karma all what my life is about is my karma. This is all I can perceive. I can get rid off many things but this stays and on this I can lean on as it is here persistently. So it is my religion – it suggests answers and question. As it is not possible to run away from it that means it is interdependent. Of what?!

 

I really want to solve this riddle ;) it doesn't want to leave me alone :)

May I suggest this line of reasoning: eventhough our life is shaped by our karma, and most of the time our perception is completely "ruled" by our mind patterns and habits, by our "past garbage experience" (as Lama Yeshe put it), it does not mean that we cannot learn anything "new".

If we train the mind by meditating properly, we can make it more supple, more free and more aware, thereby gradually breaking the chains created by the mind. For this purpose I find particularly beneficial to learn about and to contemplate on emptiness of all phenomena, and impermenance of all existence. In these Teachings by the Buddha there are many hints on how to go beyond karma, beyond conditioned perception and beyond conditioned religion, that is: how to reach an authentic experience of reality. :)

 

Best wishes, Khyenrab

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek ,

 

I will join this interesting dialogue with my narrow understanding, trying to reach a better understanding myself.

If I lean on the Gigu’s quote, according to my understanding of the two meanings of Chö, Dharma and Karma are different in any case. But please check the logic for any faults.

 

I. Dharma = objects which have definable identities of their own.

As I understand it, all the possible phenomena, being it inner or outer, are by nature empty of inherent existence, therefore neutral: whatever appears and ceases, or better, whatever is labeled as appearing or ceasing, is by itself just definable, just knowable, without being conceptual.

As we are bound to the conventional reality of samsara and our minds are deluded, we perceive any possible reality in an impure way, we label this perceptions in an impure way, we act and react in an impure way… and remain chained to the samsara. Due to free will we have a possibility to purify our mind / perceptions / reactions and therefore some day realize the lack of inherent existence of phenomena and their dependent arising. When one realizes Emptiness, one does not create karma any more. But even when the most subtle remains of karmic imprints are eliminated, it does not mean that all the knowables cease to exist – how would Omniscience of the Buddha be possible otherwise?

Therefore, karma and objects which have definable identities of their own must be different.

 

II. Dharma = any noble activity of mind, which can save or hold one back from disaster.

This one is easier, as Dharma is usually understood and explained this way – as a helping tool for our complete Liberation. We know that the path of liberation is paved with virtuous acts and thoughts, while the path of suffering is paved with selfish concern. Karma is not a consciousness, it is just a (blind) mechanism of cause and effect; it doesn’t think, it doesn’t choose, it doesn’t save from suffering. While due to our free will and the infinite blessings of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas we can see, think, discern, choose… and be liberated. Due to Dharma, never by any automatic result of karma.

Therefore karma and noble activities of mind, which can save us or hold us back from disaster must be different.

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek

 

Thank you for your suggestions. In a way, i find myself satisfied, as “objects which have definable identities of their own” and "meditation" were my missing link :idea: in recognizing phenomena and the tools for doing that. For that I will be satisfied. 8)

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Lets satisfaction not be the reason for not continuing. As I mentioned from formal point the Dharma and Karma appeared, at least to me, similar.

About appearances – it looks like appearances (in Samsaric realms) are suited according to circumstances and karma. But what they carry is a story. In it phenomena can be depicted, identities and differences can be seen. (If I summarize: from a far all trees in a forest look alike, but coming closer different trees appear.)

 

From here let’s see how these categorizations are considered in books.

As mentioned these two are definable identities - that means they have different qualities – nature.

Dharma is addressed as a structure, pillar, in Gelug-pa tradition also as "Graduated Path to Enlightenment";

Karma as a law of cause and effect.

 

What if Dharma is path and what if Karma is walking? That means that Dharma is being and Karma the way something goes. To continue Dharma is body of knowledge, Karma body of experience. Therefore, Dharma is a tree to lean on, Karma is fruit (from) of this tree. So if this conclusion is valuable than what is witnessed is a union of Wisdom and Method. Sacred dance of Father and Mother?

 

"... May all phenomena be wonderful miracles."

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Guest Ani.Chödrön
What if Dharma is path and what if Karma is walking?

 

Nice idea. :D But it is true only for ordinary beings, and even here just partly. Karma is not necessary leaning on Dharma. It can resemble a flies flight, which is to my ignorant view extremely chaotic. :roll: Besides, Bodhisatvas have gone beyond generating/experiencing karma, and still have a path to walk.

 

what is witnessed is a union of Wisdom and Method.

 

I would call both, the Wisdom and the Method (Skilful Means), the Dharma - both being the Path and walking on it. I see karma as something blind, and the path of Dharma as awakening awareness, using different tools to proceed on the Path. Maybe karma could be compared to water - it has no shape, no power... but it can be channelled so that it gives amazing results. :idea:

 

I would guess that when all our actions are gathered in one direction, when our mind becomes the Dharma, and the Dharma becomes our path, then, i believe, every aspect of life can become meaningful, the Path towards the Liberation of all. l-)

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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