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can you explain this term? what non-duality really means(with respect to the division between subject and object)?

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Tashi delek, :hello:

 

can you explain this term? what non-duality really means(with respect to the division between subject and object)?

 

I guess best way to answer you this is by beginning what the main qualities of mind are:

 

1.Emptiness

Mind has no form, no color, no size etc. It is nothing to be found as a solid thing

This is the Dharmakaya

 

2.Clarity

The lumineous nature of mind means that although mind is empty it is luminous in a way that mind has the ability to perceive everything and everyone, that thoughts and emotions can come up is because of this quality of mind.Mind can know everything.

This is the Sambhogakaya

 

3.Dynamic expression

Mind has an unlimited dynamic manifestation as consciousness/perceiving ability

This perceiving ability is for example: when you think of Ljubliana, you can say then, oh this is ljubliana, ljubliana is immediatly there; this perceiving ability is also that one which can recognize minds emptiness and its luminousity.Mind has limitless potential to manifest.

This is the Nirmanakaya

 

So the nature of mind has these 3 factors

 

Now we as ordinary beings do not directly experience this empty nature of mind. This is called ignorance. Instead of experiencing its empty nature we will perceive something solid. In this way comes the subject into being: the I.

 

And as we do not directly experience the luminous nature of mind, we mistake it for others, a projection of something else, the object appears.

Out of the dynamic aspect of mind the emotional reactions ( attraction, aversion and indifference )are taking place concering the subject´s relationship / reaction to its object

 

So the problem is that we perceive subject and object as 2 different things.

So I would say that nonduality means not perceiving anymore the division of subject and object. It means that you will directly perceive the empty nature of mind and its luminous aspect.

 

With all my best wishes

Csillag

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Tashi delek,:hello:

 

does this mean that the object and the subject become one?

 

They do not become one as they were always one. There is no reflection of the moon in the water without the moon being there.

But if we try to get this intellectually we won`t get it really,at worst case we misunderstand it as nihilism.

 

Nonduality is beyond the intellect and cannot be expressed by words therefore, we can just get a slight idea of what it could mean.

It is like I try to describe you how chocklate tastes, but how it really tastes, you will never know, you will just know that it is brown, can be white and it tastes sweet,but really understanding what chocklate is, you will just know when you taste it.

 

After you had an good discription of what chocklate is from a Lama, so when you know how a chocklate ( view )could look like, that you do not confuse it then with Haribo, then it is best to know where you can buy chocklate,how to get to the shop, how much money you need that you can buy it, make sure that you will taste it with your mouth and not try to do other things with it etc., ....so try to get the chocklate instead of spending too much time on philosophizing what the taste of chocklate could be, could be, could be, could be.....

( Because many of us we are living too much in the intellectual world and forget therefore to go to a shop to buy chocklate and to taste it.We forget to make an effort to buy it, )

 

Besides all this what I am writing here is just mental intellectual game with no chocklade taste in mouth, and I have to admit when I wrote down these lines I became little bit proud, that I was able to express something in a chocklade way . ( maybe my english is so bad that I even don`t know how to spell chocklate right , so........)

So you see this is the danger when we stop at the intellect. We get proud.

;-)

 

With all my best chocklade wishes

Csillag

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

I would just remind about the Two Truths. Most of us are caught in the concepts of conventional reality; some are able to perceive non-duality directly. Nevertheless, a preparation is needed to realize Emptiness, deepening the understanding that everything that we perceive is a creation of our own mind, like in a dream.

 

As object of our dreams are one with our minds, so our awake perception is not separated from our stream of consciousness. (Which does not exclude the actual existence of other beings, but not the way we perceive them.)

 

The process of deepening the understanding how karma works, how phenomena exist, how we create hindrances to understanding it all … loosens our rigid habitual reactions. (And disciplines our mind so that it doesn’t fall into new /old obscurations so easily.) I see realization of non-duality as a process similar to melting ice into steam.

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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when percieving emptiness...there is a division between subject and object, but you just can't be aware of it? two totally diffrent natures... they disappear both (the awareness of you and the awareness of the emptiness that you are seeing directly)? :?:

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

it is a bit strange to write about something that i haven't reached, :maybe: but i'll try to help to clarify things at least a little bit.

 

when percieving emptiness...there is a division between subject and object

 

When perceiving emptiness directly, there is no duality. If you take in consideration the fact that the true nature of every phenomenon is emptiness, then non-duality is logical - it is the same underlying principle. (Fortunately. :wink: )

 

Awareness does not necessary demand an object. In fact, it is the realization of lack of a self-existing object that triggers the realization of Emptiness.

 

But on the other hand, it does not mean that nothing exists. If you know that people from a movie screen are just an interplay of shadow and light, it does not mean that optical effects on your pupil don't exist. You can still perceive them as conventionally real and be affected by them, no matter how illusionary they are. :// o:) :@ -8)-

 

The two truths, direct perception of Emptiness and tperception of conventional reality, can be perceived simultaneously only by a Buddha. With realization of Emptiness, all the grasping to the illusionary reality is removed. Bodhisattvas switch from one state to another, and gradually eliminate even the slightest traces of obscurations on their mindstreams untill all the veils to Omniscience are removed.

 

Does it clarify anything?

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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Dear all,

 

May I just point out one thing that would be a pity to forget? :) Even (or especially) meditating on emptiness should be done with the best motivation of being of some beneficial help to the others. Realizing the non-existence of any inherent "self" of all beings and all phenomena can liberate us, but it should be done for the sake of others.

 

Like Master Shantideva says, in Chapter Three of the Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life:

 

"For the sake of accomplishing the welfare of all sentient beings, I freely give up my body, enjoyments, and all my virtues of the three times.

 

Surrendering everything is Nirvana, and my mind seeks Nirvana. If I must surrender everything, it is better that I give it to sentient beings."

 

All the best

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Tashi delek at all,

 

As emptiness is a" lack "of true existence, we cannot meditate "on emptiness?

 

How could we visualize a voidness?

 

Actually, the mind focus on an object - whatever among all phenomena - physical or mental-

looking for its existence per se.

By deepening concentration (shine) and developing analytical process (samatha), we finally arrive to the conclusion that we don't find any self- inherent existence to this object, understanding its emptiness (of self- inherent existence).

 

Even the smallest part of matter cannot be found...there is no ultimate intrinsic reality, only a conventional one, merely "designed" by the mind on a valid basis of the objects.

The phenomena exist of course, as we perceive them- but not the way we believe.

They don't exist the way they appear: they exist because our mind created them.

 

The appearances are a source of deception as long as we perceive them with a dualistic mind which is "attached" to them and reacts emotionally, letting imprints on the stream of consciousness. This" psychic tail" or background is the invisible part of the "iceberg".

 

Lama Zopa Rinpoche says that " looking for the conventional truth, we find the ultimate one, and looking for the ultimate truth, we find the conventional one".

the two truths are interdependant and complementary.

 

In the 4 Noble Truths, Buddha teaches us the end of suffering, a state of non-deluded mind beyond duality (free from ignorance) called nirvana.

 

Once we realized that everything is the result of our past actions, we are able to use the law of causality for the good. As the mind is the "creator", we "weave" the web of our life at every second, watching the mind and the way it reacts.

 

Each thought, speech or action will give an result when the conditions will let them appear.

So it is always our free will to choose the good or the wrong path...sowing the right seeds for the right effect.

Our destiny is in our hands, and in our mind! That's a good new, isn'it? tell it around :-v

 

ani Chönyi :D

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Tashi Delek,

 

If I may add my grain of salt... The more time goes by, the less I feel a difference between me and the reality I perceive... The sense of duality is fading away, in my mind it goes thus: "this conventionnal reality you perceive, doesn't exist without your mind perceiving it... Therefore, you are one with this reality, you are one with all things you perceive, because they wouldn't exist without your mind perceiving them...".

 

Our mind is in fact, what it perceives! When you see the tree, you see your mind, when you see the ocean, you see your mind, when you see your mom, you see your mind, when you see the gardiens of hell (and I really, truly hope none of us will ever see them again!!!), you see your mind, when you feel burnt, you feel your mind, when you feel bliss, you feel your mind... It's like the sentence, "You are what you eat...", well it's the same for the mind, "You are what you perceive...", you are me and I am you and you are the computer you're looking at and the words you're reading and the chair you're sitting on etc... It's the whole in one, reality is but a reflection of our own mind, nothing else!!! Makes the head spin doesn't it?

 

That's why you really don't want to tarnish your mind with non virtuous actions of body, mind or speech, because if you do, you will experience the exact reflections of what you printed on it... In fact, we are all the directors of our up-coming brand new motion picture, we are the director but also the future main character... So, what do we want to star in, a happy flick or a horror flick???

 

The feeling of duality comes from our ignorance, from our belief that things exist inherently, completely outside of ourselves, when in fact they really, absolutely don't... Now we have to practice more and more in meditation in order to get the experience and to settle it completely, and not get back into old habits of seeing things existing outside of how our mind actually perceives them... Or, as Lama Yeshe or Lama Zopa Rinpoche said it so well :"Everything is empty on its own side...".

 

By establishing ourselves in mental quietness and deepening our single-pointed power of concentration, our mind will eventually be able to cut through this reflection, and look directly into its true nature, its Buddha nature, free of karma, the clear light experience, when all things become one, otherwise called... Enlightment :D

 

Best regards,

frederic

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All meditation must begin with arousing deep compassion.

Whatever one does must emerge from an attitude of love and benefiting others.

 

Know emptiness,

Be compassionate.

 

Jetsun Milarepa

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Hm, here is this analogy from Buddha Shakyamuni “… just as a finger pointing to the moon is not the moon itself.” :idea: This analogy is very vibrant at this topic about non duality. As the place or state of realization of non duality lies beyond the capacity of words and other conceptual constructs, so mainly what is written or spoken about this topic is a raft for crossing. In Avatamsaka Sutra there is a nice section on nondual nature of a Buddha. :arrow:

 

Looking at the Buddha in various ways, there's nothing there;

Seeking him in all directions, he can't be found.

The manifestations of the reality body have no true actuality:

This is truth is seen by Silent Sound.

 

The real body of the Buddha is fundamentally non-dual;

Yet it fills the world according to beings and forms-

Sentient beings each see it before them:

This is the perspective of Flames of Light.

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Hmm, this topic about “non-duality” is not as innocent as the shortness of a question may imply. There is a difference in understanding of this term in different Buddhist traditions. It looks like in Mahayana tradition the term is describing a place of final attainment. Entering into nirvana is not the time for rest. The Nirvana is understood as an opposition to Smasara. There is also a supreme awakening – that means that an aspirant transcends both extremes (of Samsara and Nirvana). When one acknowledge all expressions (of pure mind) and transcend them, one can go behind the limits into an expanse of inexpressible. If this is so may the noble path and practices of Bodhisattva Samantabhadra be the inspiration:

 

 

The ground of all is uncomposed,

An inexpressible, self-arisen expanse

Without the names "samsara" and "nirvana."

If it is known, buddhahood is attained.

Not knowing it, beings wander in samsara.

May all beings of the three realms

Know the inexpressible ground.

 

 

(The Aspiration of Samantabhadra)

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek!

 

Hmm, this topic about “non-duality” is not as innocent as the shortness of a question may imply.
Indeed. :))

 

The Nirvana is understood as an opposition to Smasara. There is also a supreme awakening – that means that an aspirant transcends both extremes (of Samsara and Nirvana).

 

To some extent, yes. I would rather say that Nirvana and Samsara are seen as different until the realisation of Emptiness, as it is realisation of non-duality. This means the middle way, transcending the extremes. -()- During meditation on Emptiness there is no duality. For a person who has realised Emptiness, after leaving this meditation the view of conceptual reality is much more subtle then ours, awareness of the illusionary nature of appearances is not lost, he is not fooled by the creations of his own mind and therefore karma is neither generated nor experienced. The person is rescued from the spider net of illusions which are lebeled as Samsara. {-|-} But the subtle obscurations preventing the mind to reveal the Omniscience of the Buddha are still to be removed. This is what the Bodhisattvas do until they reach the Final Goal. Then they can dwell in the Two Truths simultaneously and know "the inexpressible ground". -()- -()- -()- -()- -()- -()- -()- -()- -()- -()-

 

Realisation of non-duality is, unfortunately, not reached just by denying duality. :roll: To my limited understanding, the polarisation on Samsara and Nirvana (and the system of practices) is used in order to channel our efforts and our mind as a whole to the realisation of Perfect Wisdom (in order to benefit all sentient beings in a better way. {|:)) If non-duality would emerge just by denying duality - what would be the need of practice and efforts in everyday life? This is a possible danger. The keys for true realisation of Wisdom are: purification, merits and analysis. Told in another way: although leaning on the analytical practices, non-duality is reached on the ground of working with our everyday life; concepts, although being the key to non-conceptuality, have to be accompanied with the purity and merits of our whole life. I think this is what makes this simple question tricky. :wink:

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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Guest Ani.Chödrön
does anybody can say about what happens the next day after realizing emptiness directly?

 

:))

 

I guess it would be the best to check it in practice (to work in this direction). l-) :D

 

All the very best,

 

chödrön

 

 

 

P.S.: As far as i remember, it is told that at the moment one realizes Emptiness directly, one:

- doesn't create any new karma,

- doesn't experience any old karma,

- dwells in non-duality, while meditating on Emptiness,

- sees conventional reality as an illusion and is not tricked by it, while not meditating on Emptiness,

- is able to practice more effectively (both: helping others and deepening the understanding of reality),

- and therefore proceeds quicker on the Path to Enlightenment. ;-F

 

I assume that the first moment of realizing Emptiness directly and a few hours later don't differ drastically. :wink:

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Tashi delek,:hello:

 

 

Hmm, this topic about “non-duality”

 

Here is a quotion from Tai Situ Rinpoche about nonduality, maybe interesting for you.

 

"Non duality perspective is the way things are. Conventional, regular, our way is dualistic way. You can`t avoid saying " I, you". When I spoke Dharma to you I used " I " many times even this evening, this is the dualistic way.

 

But because of this, this is the evidence of non duality. Ultimately everything is beyond dualism. So we end up saying non dual, but non dual which is not the opposite of duality. Non dual which is the essence of duality.

The nonduality is manifest right now through duality.

 

When we become buddha or when we attain realisation it doesn`t mean mean we look for something and we gain it, we become. But how can we become ?

We go beyond the conventional dualistic way. That is becoming. "

 

 

So I would understand nonduality basically as emptiness. Because there is emptiness, there is everything.( Nonduality manifests through duality )

And of course on the intellectual level there are some different philosophies on emptiness, but the experience of emptiness is always the same as I know.

 

Samsara and nirvana are according to my understanding 2 different mental states:

Samsara is experiencing suffering and nirvna is no more suffering, it is happiness.

But this is actually just a concept, because "no suffering cannot be without "suffering".

So therefore the real nirvana is beyond the notions of suffering and non suffering, as the base of samsara and nirvana is emptiness.

Nirvana and Samsara are just concepts in our head, but nonduality, emptiness in its real sence is beyond concepts. So therefore our rational mind will never be able to experience it, but at least it will us help to exerience it one day, as thanks to our intellect we will put our concentration on this topic, and not anymore on mudame things and start to practice the ngöndro or whatever in order to experience it.....and one day we will be able to let go of our concepts......

 

There is not an entity called samsara or nirvana existing, and ultimately noone who would experience nirvana or samsara , because if there would be someone

( an entity, which perceives oneself separate of the rest of the world, not depending on the sourounding, thinking that deep inside there is something which makes his personality,) experiencing nirvana, it would not be nirvana. Everything is nondual, empty.

 

So there is noone who could experience something like nirvana and enlightenment , so there is nothing to experience from the ultimate / essential poit of view.

But from the relativ / phenomenal point of view there is experience of nirvana and samsara, but one who experiences nirvana will perceive all things differently than a samsaric person. This perception will be nondual, but perception will be there of course.

 

So I don`t know if my understanding is right on this subject, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

One Rinpoche, it was Chime Rinpoche, jocked one day: He said we western people like so much demonstrating, why are we not demonstrating against concepts ? :CD

 

 

With all my best wishes

Csillag

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