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About responsible reactions to other's actions ...

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Tashi Delek!

 

The 37 practices of a Bodhisattva, verse 12, says:

 

"Even if someone, driven by desperate want,

Steals, or makes someone else steal, everything you own,

Dedicate to him your body, your wealth, and

All the good you've ever done or will do -- this is the practice of a bodhisattva."

 

Does this mean that when for example I know someone is stealing from me, I let him continue it and add even more money so he/she can take that too?

Ok, I understand, we are not supposed to harbour ill feelings against that person and lie awake at night and plot revenge. Usually, it isn't hard to understand how someone came to act like this, and if we can see that, we can't really be angry. And we can work on our attachment to those things that have been stolen, too. All very useful indeed, and we can benefit a lot from it. :D

 

But if we wish the best for that person, can we let him/her continue with such behaviour?

 

In the case of parents, this is more or less clear: we have to educate the children, teach them what is right and what isn't, for their own sake - this is our responsibility. We can't just let them do everything they wish, as this isn't good for them.

 

But what about adult people around us? What is our responsibility in reacting to their actions? If we see someone doing something we think is wrong, should we try to stop them, persuade them to stop, or try to prevent them doing it? Or should we let them continue? (And only take care that WE are not the ones collecting bad karma? :wink: )

 

And inside this question, there is another one: how can we see, if we can see at all, that another person's actions are wrong?

Often I hear: "I am not enlightened, so I really can't know what is correct and what isn't, I can't judge that person's behaviour etc.". But sorry, it is usually a mere excuse for not doing anything. :wink: If we take a crass example: I think we all agree that sexually abusing children or killing people is wrong. So if we say that we can't know what is right and what isn't, we can't be sure about this two actions either. But we are sure here, aren't we?

 

Kind regards.

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Does this mean that when for example I know someone is stealing from me, I let him continue it and add even more money so he/she can take that too?
No, of course. Those practices are meant to train the mind, to bring us to the point where such situation could take place without our mind to be disturbed. Yet, conventionally, we can/have to react according to the situation, with inner peace and wisdom!

 

And inside this question, there is another one: how can we see, if we can see at all, that another person's actions are wrong?
As you pointed out, it is very difficult to "judge" what the others are doing. Therefore, we might better not! The most important is what *we* are doing, and to see if it is correct or not, according to the Ethic taught by the Buddha and following Enlighten Beings.

Sometime, Bodhisattvas are acting in rather strange ways. Their action, though, is not motivated by any selfish goal but with the motivation to help as many beings as possible.

The only thing we could really say in front of someone acting in a way we can recognize as incorrect is: "I desagree with such behaviour, will not engage in similar, and will not teach such way as being good". And to practice Virtue instead.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Tashi Delek again!

 

Thank you for the answer. You say:

 

Those practices are meant to train the mind, to bring us to the point where such situation could take place without our mind to be disturbed. Yet, conventionally, we can/have to react according to the situation, with inner peace and wisdom!

..

As you pointed out, it is very difficult to "judge" what the others are doing. Therefore, we might better not! The most important is what *we* are doing ...

Could you please explain how it goes together to "react according to the situation" and "better not judge what the others are doing"? This I find confusing - if someone is stealing, and I see it, I surely can say that he/she is stealing, and react accordingly? So is the recognition "he is stealing" the same as judging or not?

 

And one more thing:

 

Sometime, Bodhisattvas are acting in rather strange ways. Their action, though, is not motivated by any selfish goal but with the motivation to help as many beings as possible.

Should we then suspect anybody acting in a strange way to be a Bodhisattva in disguise? 8O Including serial killers and child molesters? Or can we somehow recognise who is doing something with an unselfish goal in mind?

 

From the other side, I understand this so: if we have an idea in our mind how a Bodhisattva should act or behave (or look), this is only how we imagine things should be, and we tend to make that picture out of the material we have in our mind - as a Bodhisattva must surely be a good person, we might add together a good aunt who always brought us chocolates, some good teachers we had in school, a bit of Karl May and Star Wars, and then we add some pictures of Bodhisattvas we have seen, and maybe other people we admired, and even some spiritual persons or "spiritual persons". Then we will meet some "suspected Bodhisattva" and compare him to this conglomerate. :lol: Of course his actions will be different to what we imagined. :lol: Did I get this somehow correct?

 

Kind regards.

Thank you. :)

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Tashi Delek,

 

I would add a question to the mind provoking 37 practices too. :D

 

I can see thousands of everyday situations when I can get upset because of small approximations to cheating, stealing, slandering, injustice, etc. If I count to 1000 and take a look at a situation from different angles, I usually notice that in fact the situation isn't as I thought it is at the first moment. I can see how it disturbs my mind; it goes astray from the spirituality. Therefore I would like to use this practices; on small everyday things, where I manage to apply them. :lol:

 

So, how to act in the most compassionate, calm and wise way, according to each situation? By trying to keep in mind that the reality is not as it momentarily seems to me? By focusing on other? By focusing on my mind? :?:

 

If I by any chance succeed to transform a negative attitude into compassionate one, a different state of mind appears, to which I am not accustomed too, a kind of space inside. May be I could take it for a guideline as well. :idea: What are the results of such practices, what are their benefits?

 

Thank you very much for your answers. :P

 

Khandro

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Tashi Delek,

 

Since the "officials" are not responding at all - I will have to solve all your problems. If you read this and take my advice, your Bodhichitta will grow automatically and very quickly, I assure you.

And since I don't really know what I will be talking about and since this is nothing but a joke, you must take me very very seriously! Thank you.

 

But really :)) I will answer the questions to myself and for myself, since they are pretty practical and therefore important. If anybody gets the answer he or she needs, I will be glad. I will answer Khandro's "questions" because we have already been "electronically" introduced. :)

 

 

"So, how to act in the most compassionate, calm and wise way, according to each situation?"

-- I believe wisdom and compassion are not static. The mind cannot act in a wise way if it experiences and percieves (anything) from a static - a fixed point. Of course our conventional mind is very static, not fluid at all. Flexibility and fluidity of the mind is "the foundation" of a wise mind. Yet this foundation is not "solid", it is not "material" as are concepts and ideas and thought patterns and prejudices in the mind. If we are very serious, and we should be when talking about wisdom, a wise mind is a very spontaneous mind, it knows methods of course, has knowledge, but methods are really (only) methods, as words are to a conversation. At least that's how I imagine it. So, acting wisely is difficult when the mind is in any way disturbed by anything. First one must completely still the mind in everything she or he does, stillness and quiet joy are essential and precede wisdom. Of course acting wisely is impossible without having a wise mind. Having a wise mind precedes wise action in daily life. Of course there could be a flash of genuine wisdom in a mind of an extremely greedy bussinessman, but to "live this wisdom" is quite another matter, a little bit more difficult... A wise mind is like air, there is great space in it and everything has its right "peaceful" place in it. What is interesting is that to a wise mind nothing is really difficult, it knows what its capacities are and is completely engaged (without the limitations of time) in total service to the world, but this is not difficult, it is sweet and delightful, eventhough it takes great energy! The great energy is the delight. :)

So, how to act wisely, how to be compassionate in everyday situations, these are very difficult questions to concretely answer. The compassionate mind works intuitively with perfect harmlessness and detachment. So the factors are: to have a still mind, to be harmless and to be detached. If you spend your time in this manner the actions will be wiser than usually if and when the mind gets distracted. Even upon seeing the wrongdoings of others one must see them as clearly as possible without any bias towards or against. The mind should not go crazy, saying "wisely" to itself "How could he have done that! What is wrong with him! Bad karma, you fool!" I am exaggerating a little but these are all prejudices, the mind must be still at all times, no anger must enter it at any time for any reason. Quiet, unobstructed perception of everything that happens is the "foundation" of a mind in which true wisdom can grow... (perception, unobstracted by the concepts of the mind)

 

"If I by any chance succeed to transform a negative attitude into compassionate one, a different state of mind appears, to which I am not accustomed too, a kind of space inside. May be I could take it for a guideline as well. "

 

Yes, beautiful, space inside, that's just it, I would say! J.Krishnamurti says something like: "Without space there is no vulnurability and without vulnurability there is no love." I would say that "space inside" is the part of the mind free from prejudices, mental projections of the mind...

 

A wonderful quote from "The Only revolution" by Krishnamurti which is very explanatory, page 99, goes like

this:

"Innocency and spaciousness are the flowering of meditation. There is no innocency without space. Innocency is not immaturity. You may be mature physically, but the vast space that comes with love is not possible if the mind is not free from the many marks of experience. It is these scars of experience that prevent innocency. Freeing the mind from the constant pressure of experience is meditation."

 

"What are the results of such practices, what are their benefits?"

The results of such practices is the Awakening mind as I see it. Seeing things as they are in reality and not through the veil of the ideas, beliefs, projections and concepts of our mind. The mind is the enemy, or better, the content of the mind is the enemy! Wage bloody wars, fight mercilessly and counquer the rebellious mind, become absolutely peaceful!, that's the core idea of Buddhism, I suppose.;)

 

I am glad to have answered this, but maybe and hopefully Lama Shenphen Rinpoche will give you better and more down-to-earth answers in the days to come. :)

 

All the very best, T. Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek,

 

I really hope that my bold answering didn't offend anybody who expected to get the answers from Rinpoche and that my joking wasn't understood as putting anybody or the Dharma down. I am a bit of a kidder, I confess, not always for everyone's taste!

Anyhow, I realized that my answers were somewhat "Theravada based" and I really feel that a little bit of additional Mahayana style won't hurt anyone. ;)

 

How then to treat, react to blatant wrongdoings of others? Arya Shantideva says: "Therefore, upon seeing a friend or an enemy commiting a wrong deed, one should reflect, "Such are his conditions," and be at ease."

I suppose a good procedure would be: 1) don't get angry or irritated 2) check your mind that it is still and calm 3) try to see the real reason why somebody has done something bad, immoral 4) think cheering non-judgemental thoughts about the "evildoer" like: "Oh, you little devil, you know perfectly well that that was not the right think to do, why not try a little bit harder?, you know better than that!" or "Oh, you will never get away from me, it doesn't matter how hard you try, you Silly One, before you'll know it, we'll be drinking hot chocolate in The Land Of Buddha, if you won't come, I'll personally drag you by your beautiful greasy long hair!" :) 5) if somebody is rude or angry and loud in the company of your friends or anywhere else and your "paths cross" very politely say something short and kind to him and give him an honest smile - this gets them every time, if not right at that moment, surely in the next few minutes: the mouth shut and the mind reflecting its behaviour :) 6) sometimes a firm push is needed, especially for somebody that is close to you - be like a rock and honestly and relentlessly speak "loud and clear" about the fact that that was NOT right! He or she will be thankful, if not right away, surely after awhile. Be a good friend. 7) your turn to make one or two up :)

 

All the very best, T. Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek,

 

I don’t want to privatise this Forum, so I would add just a short personal opinion. I agree with you that:

Flexibility and fluidity of the mind is "the foundation" of a wise mind.

Or the opposite: wisdom helps to soften the heart. It’s just the word 'spontaneous' at which I always prick my ears. I simply can’t imagine how - after eons of habits of ego clinging - one’s mind could spontaneously turn in another direction, towards Bodhicitta and Enlightenment. :?:

 

As you say: having wise mind, wise actions etc. is the ground. This takes effort (at least patience :wink: ) and is not comfortable. I would say that it goes against our spontaneous tendencies.

 

On the other hand I can understand spontaneity as engaging all the skills that I have learned to fulfil the goal of benefiting others. In an ever changing world there couldn’t be permanent solution either. So, we are back at developing awareness and bodhicitta. :wink:

 

I don’t know what you mean by this:

The mind is the enemy, or better, the content of the mind is the enemy!

perhaps it’s just a use of words. Term ‘enemy’ sounds too extreme to my ears, like something that has to be extinguished. I prefer to see it as a tool. … After it is pacified, of course, *sigh*.

 

All the best, Khandro

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Tashi Delek,

 

I don¦#146;t want to privatise this Forum, so I would add just a short personal opinion.

Ah, let's privatise it together!! :D

 

Or the opposite: wisdom helps to soften the heart.

Of course, but ultimately there is no "heart", there are only blissful thoughts, as I understand it, which are "heartwarming".

 

It¦#146;s just the word 'spontaneous' at which I always prick my ears. I simply can¦#146;t imagine how - after eons of habits of ego clinging - one¦#146;s mind could spontaneously turn in another direction, towards Bodhicitta and Enlightenment.

When directly experiencing Emptiness - from moment to moment - the mind is effortless in being wise, that's how I see it. That is a wise mind... Until then - it's a great great struggle!!

 

On the other hand I can understand spontaneity as engaging all the skills that I have learned to fulfil the goal of benefiting others. In an ever changing world there couldn¦#146;t be permanent solution either. So, we are back at developing awareness and bodhicitta. :wink:

When Bodhicitta is generated through years, I imagine that after awhile, it becomes more or less spontaneous, that must be so, yes.

 

I don¦#146;t know what you mean by this:
The mind is the enemy, or better, the content of the mind is the enemy!

perhaps it¦#146;s just a use of words. Term ¦#145;enemy¦#146; sounds too extreme to my ears, like something that has to be extinguished.

I have read books that say that the mind is the enemy. "The content of the mind is time, and time is my greatest enemy." (J.Krishnamurti) To use Mahayana words, ultimately the mind does not exist at all - it literally has to be extinguished! Conventionally we treat the content of the mind to be more patient, polite, caring, loving,...etc. But eventually we are headed for the big truth - there is no me, the "I" as I percieve myself is actually non-existent (that must be an experience of Emptiness, I feel). Or even better, the center from which my mind works is a complete prank!, it is not real at all, the mind exists, but as you say - it is only a blank toll, there is absolutely nothing personal about it! Our mental activities seem to give a lot of importance to the sense of self, mine, I, my plans, my girlfriend, my children - my, my, my, my, me, me, me - whereas "scientifically" these are only thought attachments that have nothing whatsoever to do with reality. There is no you, in fact; and there is no tomorrow, there is only now. Psychologically - in reality - there is no tomorrow, only this one and only most precious moment. Our mind makes the time, the duration between 7 and 12 o' clock real, but in reality there is no such thing at all!

In another book I read that the space is ultimately also absolutely and completely and entirely non-existent - "all creation can be found on a point of a single needle" - if I remember correctly. That's looking "behind form", huh!??!

So, I would humbly ;) say: "The fight IS on, the war must be waged, the battle must be won and the illusion slayed past resurrection."

 

All the very best, T. Khyenrab

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Could you please explain how it goes together to "react according to the situation" and "better not judge what the others are doing"? This I find confusing - if someone is stealing, and I see it, I surely can say that he/she is stealing, and react accordingly? So is the recognition "he is stealing" the same as judging or not?
Not ;) but it can quickly become! Facts are facts, out of our understanding of course.

If you see your child stealing, you shall point it out, and discuss with him about so that s/he understand that it is not nice, brings trouble, and so. Usually we do not think that our child is a bad person, even if we see him/her to steal. But if we see somebody else doing the same, we might "judge" more severely.

 

Sometime, Bodhisattvas are acting in rather strange ways. Their action, though, is not motivated by any selfish goal but with the motivation to help as many beings as possible.
Should we then suspect anybody acting in a strange way to be a Bodhisattva in disguise? 8O Including serial killers and child molesters? Or can we somehow recognise who is doing something with an unselfish goal in mind?
We can act without to have a disturbed mind. We can recognised that such person is stealing, and act upon, by common sense and by law, without to have to generate hateful mind. Might it be about "apple stealing", murder, or child molesting, to let our mind be disturbed is the last thing which can help.

Let also dissociate the person and his/her behaviour. We can completely desagree about a type of behaviour but at the same time keep that person into your "field of Compassion".

About Bodhisattva... We rarely know to who we are talking. So, may be that person is completely foolish and/or dangerous, may be s/he is acting out of skilfull means and Bodhicitta!? Who are we to judge?

In any case, lets follow exactly what the Buddha has taught, the most Ethical Path, and not any foolish and/ or dangerous behaviour, which, even if we have to act against, is not a basis for hatred, spite, or any revengeful mind.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Tashi Delek!

 

Usually we do not think that our child is a bad person, even if we see him/her to steal. But if we see somebody else doing the same, we might "judge" more severely.

Hum, this doesn't seem so wrong? After all, we accept that children yet need to develop a sense of responsibility, regardless whether it is our own child or any other child. But with adults, it seems somehow logical that we are allowed to expect responsibility ... Or not?

 

If I say that someone is acting in an irresponsible way, that doesn't mean I said s/he is a bad person, although this is often understood so. So this isn't judging, but an assessment of facts as I perceive them?

 

We can act without to have a disturbed mind. We can recognised that such person is stealing, and act upon, by common sense and by law, without to have to generate hateful mind. Might it be about "apple stealing", murder, or child molesting, to let our mind be disturbed is the last thing which can help.

OK, I think I understand "to act by law" - if the act is criminal, we probably should take all the necessary steps, like police and such. But what does it mean "to act by common sense"? Namely, I think that in such cases our mind isn't only disturbed by anger, hate and revengeful thoughts - it can also be disturbed by doubt what we can do, are allowed to do, what is the proper action. If we doubt about such things, we can also omit action where we actually should do something?

 

Let also dissociate the person and his/her behaviour. We can completely desagree about a type of behaviour but at the same time keep that person into your "field of Compassion".

Which makes matters complicated. :wink: If we simply get angry and decide to kill the person who offended us, this is simple. But if we wish well to that person, and do our best not to act out of revenge or hate, what then? To let him/her continue with the same behaviour, obviously doesn't bring much good, does it? There may be others involved, and we can't just stand and look at them being tormented, abused and such. Doesn't Compassion in such a case also extend to others, not only to the perpetrator?

 

About Bodhisattva... We rarely know to who we are talking. So, may be that person is completely foolish and/or dangerous, may be s/he is acting out of skilfull means and Bodhicitta!? Who are we to judge?

Is this relevant at all? To what do we react - to the title of the person, or to what we perceive as coming from that person, and the echo it creates in our mind? I think if someone is a Bodhisattva s/he will be able to produce words or actions which will cause exactly the right reaction in our mind, regardless if we know this or not.

 

Thank you, and best regards. :)

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Hum, this doesn't seem so wrong? After all, we accept that children yet need to develop a sense of responsibility, regardless whether it is our own child or any other child. But with adults, it seems somehow logical that we are allowed to expect responsibility ... Or not?
Who said I was talking about a small child? Parents tend to consider their progeniture as 'their' children, for ever ;)
If I say that someone is acting in an irresponsible way, that doesn't mean I said s/he is a bad person, although this is often understood so. So this isn't judging, but an assessment of facts as I perceive them?
It all depends on the type of motivation you have then...
But what does it mean "to act by common sense"?
"Murder" for example is "by common sense" condamned in all countries. Though, of course, this sense changes according to the time and situation...
If we simply get angry and decide to kill the person who offended us, this is simple. But if we wish well to that person, and do our best not to act out of revenge or hate, what then? To let him/her continue with the same behaviour, obviously doesn't bring much good, does it?
No, to feel compassion toward someone doesn't means at all to let that person acting negatively to others (or to herself sometime). It means to do not get angry, upset, develop revengful thoughts, and such; and to act based on what is th best solution for all. Wisely.
Is this relevant at all?
Yes, it is, because it defines the type of reaction we might have. If we think before to act (by body, speech, or mind) then we might not act in the same way as if we let our emotions to overwhelm us!

 

All the best, Gelong Shenphen

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Hi! Fairly new at the forums. Hope i am not interrupting anything. I just had a couple of thoughts.

The hardest part for me is really identifying the motivation. On the surface i can convince myself that i am doing whatever i am doing or not doing whatever i am choosing not to do to help the other person. But... Always there is a but! If i follow things around enough it usually comes back to being about me. I can say that i am not eating meat out of compassion for my kind mothers, but is it that or because i would feel bad if i did and dislike feeling bad? It is like when i hear people talking about their old pets who have recently been euthanized because the owner "didn't want them to have to suffer anymore." I tend to think that it is the owner who didn't want to feel bad about the animal suffering. It's so hard, at least with my messy mind to even really see why i am doing something. I just try to weed out the obvious and try to think about others more at this point. I am easily distracted by shiny objects. :)

About the subject name. This has interested me. Correct me if i am wrong, but no one can be responsible for another's reactions, only for their own actions. The other person's reactions pretty much are their own reponsibility, right?

Thanks!

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Indeed, to find out what is our real motivation is far to be easy! It requieres already to have a correct inderstanding of the mind, how it works, and to know well what is Compassion, Bodhicitta, versus pitty, egoïsm, etc... Yet, as soon as we step on the spiritual Path, we have to seek for honesty, at first within ourself!

 

No one can be fully responsible for another's reaction. But if we activly take part in an action knowing that the result will be the anger of another person, we are partly responsible of it.

 

All the best, Gelong Shenphen

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No one can be fully responsible for another's reaction. But if we activly take part in an action knowing that the result will be the anger of another person, we are partly responsible of it.

And if we know that the reaction of other person is painfull (even anger), but we understand also that through this pain this person could free from some kind of childish attitude - should we act in the same tough way?

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Yes, is it possible; but only - as you wrote - if the KNOW! Which implies a level of Wisdom. Otherwise, if we "think" we know, but it is only a projection, we can acheive the opposite of what we hoped...

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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What are the criterias, according to which we can say - whether this are only our projections or this are things we know?

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If there could be!? :

But unless one has realized Emptiness, there is alway risk to project on the illusion that we are taking for true...

 

All the best, Gelong Shenphen

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