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Atreju

Numbers of slaughtered animals in Slovenia

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Dear all,

 

For your information:

 

According to Animal Liberation and Animal Rights Association there are 20 million animals killed in Slovenia each year, a big majority on animal farms, slaughter-houses; some 100.000 in the woods. Laboratory test are made on 15.000 animals each year. :cry:

 

The Association invites to the second big vegetarian picknic this Saturday, 3rd of September in Mostec, Ljubljana. More at: http://www.osvoboditev-zivali.org/

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Tashi Delek,

 

Last night I was watching a TV show which you could classify as a sociological study of mankind.

 

For example, they talked about facial features which could be seen as dominant (proeminant chin and eyebrows) and which would imply a dominant position in society. Results showed that those in a military school whose year-book picture was given a high grade on a scale of "dominant facial features" by the sociologists who conducted the study, all achieved highest ranks in the military, such as 4 stars general, etc.

 

Also, they talked about why humans really hated loosing, explaining the physiological reactions which happened when one realized that he was about to loose. Hormones and endorphines were secreted, creating stress and stimulating the hypocampus I believe, thus engraving in our memory this very unpleasant feeling so that we would really fight hard not to see it repeated again... They explained that this was our heritage from times when loosing could be deadly, when we were still just "savage" men and women, and that reputation was very important in order to survive.

 

Thus, today's modern men and women hate loosing and will do anything not to, and this is why humans are such competitive beings, and also because we have big brains and the ability to form groups in order to compete against each other...

 

But now, why do we have big brains? That was to be their next explanation.

In fact, they showed that, at one point in the evolution of mankind, good old "australopithecus", whose alimentary diet was composed of only fruits and nuts, and whose cranial box was quite small, had to be replaced by a more performant human being, one whose cranial box was to become much bigger...

These "new" men and women, the "Homo Erectus", began to include in their diet, meat, and were thus the first omnivorus. And they explained that this was probably why men and women became what they are in today's competitive environment, because of the inclusion of meat in their diet...

 

Now, I don't know if that's true, but if eating meat gave us the capability to develop our mental capacities at one point so that today we are able to medidate on the meaning of life and the nature of our spirit, then that was a good thing right? Ever since I got into Buddhism, I have kinda given up on buying meat products (although I still do eat meat on occasions...), because it is true that we are taking advantage of the suffering of other beings in order to satisfy our selfish needs... But maybe these are not so selfish after all... maybe these are necessary for the maintain of the specie.... but humans have not found a middle way for that yet I'm sure!

 

So don't get this message wrong, this is not a plea for senseless animal slaughtering or tests conducted on animals, and the facts and figures exposed by Atreju are very saddening :sad: These practices should be banished and ruthless people who engage in these types of conducts, emprisoned.

 

Yet, as eating meat seemed to be necessary (from the point of view of the documentary anyways) at one point of our evolution in order to make us what we are today, I just though it would be interesting to mention it.

 

What are your thoughts on this? In the looooooooong term, can mankind really go without meat? That would be an interesting scientific study... But maybe I'm not well enough documented on the topic :)

 

Best regards to you all,

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

Now, I don't know if that's true, but if eating meat gave us the capability to develop our mental capacities at one point so that today we are able to medidate on the meaning of life and the nature of our spirit, then that was a good thing right?

 

what you are talking about is just one of the many anthropological theories. What comes to media is usually just a simplification, a selection of the material attained by the researchers. It is not necessary a true picture, but it can give some food for thought. :wink: I guess it would be boring for most of the TV audience, if the show would be: in the year… XY found out… but in the year… it came out… while the researchers of the University of… claim that… In such simplification a rich and complex reality is reduced into generally accepted phrases, which you knew before watching the show. Sometimes the result of it (due to the media or sometimes due to the scientists) is just a rational confirmation of what we want to hear. Like the selfish gene theory, propagating selfishness as the best survival kit. :cry:

 

There are much more theories and researches supporting the connection between spiritual development and not eating meat then the opposite. It is proven that meat increases aggression in us; how could an aggressive and restless man meditate? :crunch: You can also take another perspective and notice that the reduction of meat consumption correlates with the first settlements and rise of the first great cultures. Hunters and warriors don’t tend to form high spirituality. :?

 

In the looooooooong term, can mankind really go without meat?

 

As far as I know, for centuries there were people in India who were strictly vegetarian; it has been based on Vedic scriptures, which would mean a more then 3000 year tradition. The majority is still more or less vegetarian, isn’t it? Like our grandparents and grandparents’ grandparents…

 

That would be an interesting scientific study...

 

I’m sceptical about this possibility. Too much money is in the meat industry and it’s easier to manipulate an adrenaline junkie then a free thinking person.

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek, dear Ani Ch?dr?n.

 

Maybe not all the hunters and warriors don`t tend to form high spirituality. Did you think about them?

Here I would like to point it out about the famous master I read about, who was a hunter and when he shot one doe and saw how she gave the last strenght to bring forth to her baby, he become converted.

There are several kinds of the warriors and one of them are the warriors of the honour. For them could be said, that one can master the others if one masters himself first. Those warriors are sacred and you can find them among American Indians, Samurais and even among the Partisans. The sacred ones are those, who gave their own lives to rescue the other sentient beings. It would be interesting to know the reasons that brings men to get involved in the war. It is not necesarily always the wish to kill.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

Maybe not all the hunters and warriors don`t tend to form high spirituality. Did you think about them?

 

Yes, i've thought about the Native Americans, samurais, hunters of the tribes which depend on meat etc. It's not that i would judge them as persons or nations, i can still learn a lot from them, surely. {|:) And they are sentient beings who want to be happy and don't want to suffer. But their actions, if this is killing, making other kill or similar, are negative actions, which will not bring them happiness. Nor to the others. If you look at the consequences of such actions, no matter how sacred thoughts might be behind them, they are still tragic, at least from my point of view. Human life is so increadibly hard to find and so easy to lose. :cry: But just imagine all this energy, time and mental potentials directed in the actions which would bring positive results.

 

Another remark, to avoid missunderstanding: with spirituality i mean mostly what we do in our everyday life, no matter what name our religion carries. But there are still different scopes, of course.

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek,

 

In the looooooooong term, can mankind really go without meat?

 

I think that any individual being can go far without killing animals, eating meat and avoiding similar unwholesome actions ;)

 

From Lord Buddha's Sutra of Causes and Effects of Actions:

 

"One who kills and cuts up living beings falls into the hell of the mountain of knives and the trees of swords. The person who is the hunter of game and both shoots with the bow and trains a falcon and dog, falls into the hell of the iron tree. (It is a great sin to be a hunter.) One who has illicit desires falls into the hell of brazen columns, and falls into the hell of iron beds. He who has many wives falls into the hell of iron millstones; she who has many husbands falls into the hell of ferocious snakes. One who cooks chickens falls into the hell of burning ash. One who with boiling water skins living beings falls into the hell of boiling cauldrons. One who castrates living beings falls into the hell of stone spikes. One who is a drinker of beer falls into the hell of brass. One who is an eater of meat falls into the hell of excrement. One who eats raw fish falls into the hell of the forest of knives and the tree of swords..."

http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/bud...se_effect.shtml

 

Scary, but there it is...

 

With best wishes,

A.

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Tashi Delek.

 

Did anyone ask what was a turning point in the history that brought the human beings to start eating meat? Not to excuse eating the meat, yet in order to understand the functioning in samsara? Usually in our lives the extreme circumstances are those, which contribute to change the direction. What if eating meat started in the way that one man found himself to make a decision between the life and the death of a child on the one side and the wild animal, which wanted to eat a child on the other side?

I do not support killing animals or the other sentient beings neither eating them. I just want to understand why killing animals and eating them are still happening, maybe cause of some man who was resolving his own unfortunate karma thousands years ago and later found some profit by eating the dead body of that animal? Was that the origin of a social and economic progress? The progress, which is unfair...someone have got the profit on the account of the others lack. The same case in the medicine with experiments on the animals in order to make a progress in the health service. I`m not sure anymore, if I understand the meaning of the word progress.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi Delek Simona,

 

I guess, it must have had something to do with men finding dead bodies of animals, maybe not necessarily killing them at first, and then realizing that their fur could be used to make warm protecting clothing. They probably tasted the meat as well, and of course enjoyed it, and that was the beginning of that... This is just another one of the likely causes I can come up with, but I haven't done any spiritual or scientific checks on that, just brainstorming :)

 

This is just the unfortunate fate of sentient beings who reincarnate into the animal kingdom, as exposed by the Buddhadharma and witnessed by us all... Most animals will have to kill one another in order to survive and will be exploited by mankind for their meat, fur, etc... Can we really stop this exploitation? On a personal level, of course one can decide to become strictly vegetarian, and so stop contributing to this deadly and unfair exploitation, and that shows tremendous respect and compassion! But on a more general level, as long as there will be beings caught up in the samsara, with some reborn as animals and others as humans, I am pretty sure things will remain as they are, as I don't see every human beings turning to vegetarianism all at once!

 

Another thing I have heard, this time in a Sangha. One of the seniors there once told me that certain specific blood types do need some amount of meat in their diet otherwise their health will go bad. He had himself tried to become a vegeterian but had failed for this reason. His blood type is O+, which also happens to be my blood type. I guess with centuries of meat consumption, some humans must have developped a physical dependance to it, transmitted by genes and that some cannot escape anymore, even during their fortunate rebirth... Just another samsaric irony :(

 

Best regards,

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Tashi Delek, Frederic.

 

I think that there is a difference between the knowledge and the imagination. The knowledge is a form, from which imagination can be brought up and it is the way that brings space. The space, which is important for the dialogue and here is something for your imagination:

 

Blood group: 0 (the oldest)

Source: hunters and gatherers

Digestive system: relatively resistant, provides a lot of stomach sourness, which is important to digest the meat. Hardly bears nuts, cereals and milk products.

Immunity system: very active, responds perfectly and high sensitivity on changes and new influences

Recommendation: meat, sea food

 

Blood group: A

Source: farmers, settlers

Digestive system: sensitive, hardly build out the animal proteins and fats and easily bears vegetable and fruits and also sea fishes

Immunity system: sensitive and flexible

Recommendation: fresh vegetable, soya, cereals (except the wheat)

 

Blood group: B

Source: nomads, inhabitants of the steppe

Digestive system: resistant, bears meat (except the poultry), vegetable, milk products

Immunity system: strong and flexible

Recommendation: meat, vegetable, fruits, cereals and milk

 

Bloud group: AB

Source: Kavkaz, Mongolia

Digestive system: bears balanced food of meat and vegetable

Immunity system: extremly flexible

Recommendation: meat, fishes, milk, and at most cereals, vegetable, fruits and leguminous plants

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

 

P. S.: My blood is B.

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Tashi Delek,

 

Thank you, venerable Thubten Chödrön, Simona and Atreju for your helpful and relevant comments :)

 

I was wondering, is anybody reading this forum, who has an O+ blood type and is a vegeterian? If so, I would really like to hear your testimony, for example, how long have you been a vegetarian for, what was difficult or still is to overcome, or if you tried and "failed", what was the actual physical trouble experienced? Also, what food can we actually consume as a healthy substitute to the nutrients contained in meat?

 

Thank you very much,

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Dear Frederic and others,

 

Maybe a medically educated person will correct me, please do, but I think this type of blood or that type of blood has no different consequences on your digesting food, and getting enough proteins, fats and sugar if you eat food that contains enough of these. You can eat many meat substitutes such as soya products - tofu, seitan, vegetarian sausages, vegetarian hamburgers, there's soya and rice milk; and all the various vegetables and fruits...etc. :)

 

Some quotes from VeggieDharma.Org:

 

"Eating of meat extinguishes the seed of great compassion."

~ The Buddha (Mahaparinirvana Sutra)

 

"If a man can control his body and mind and thereby refrains from eating animal flesh and wearing animal products, I say he will really be liberated."

~ The Buddha (Surangama Sutra)

 

Sayings of the Buddha from the Lankavatara Sutra:

~ "For innumerable reasons, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva, whose nature is compassion, is not to eat any meat."

~ "For fear of causing terror to living beings, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva who is disciplining himself to attain compassion, refrain from eating flesh."

~ "Meat is not agreeable to the wise: it has a nauseating odor, it causes a bad reputation, it is food for the carnivorous; I say this, Mahamati, it is not to be eaten."

~ "From eating meat arrogance is born, from arrogance erroneous imaginations issue, and from imagination is born greed; and for this reason refrain from eating meat."

~ "The meat-eater is ill-smelling, contemptuous, and born deprived of intelligence; he will be born again and again among the families of the Candala, the Pukkasa, and the Domba [classes of outcastes]."

~ "Meat-eating is condemned by the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and Sravakas; if one devours meat out of shamelessness he will always be devoid of sense."

~ "Therefore, do not eat meat which will cause terror among people, because it hinders the truth of emancipation; not to eat meat— this is the mark of the wise."

 

"As a Buddhist, we practice so as to benefit self and others hence we do the six-syllable mantra practice. However, when we eat meat be it chicken, pork, fish or eggs in our daily lives, we are creating immense negative karma. If on the one hand, we chant the mantra and on the other hand, we eat the meat of mother sentient beings, then our words and actions do not tally with one another. We are not doing as we preach. Can this be considered as loving kindness and compassion towards sentient beings? Is this doing good and abstaining from evil? We take refuge in the Buddha because his teachings could benefit all sentient beings. As a Buddhist, we should understand the essence of the Buddha's wisdom and teachings, which is to do good and abstain from committing evil deeds. Abstaining from evil means that we have to keep our precepts. Hence we should not take meat. When we are sick, old or near death, we would go to the doctor, we would practice and do anything possible to extend our life

span. However, when we take meat, we are killing sentient beings that are healthy. How great is our compassion and loving kindness if we treat sentient beings in such a manner ? We should abstain from killing because it generates immense negative karma. Instead, we should develop loving kindness and compassion towards all sentient beings.

"In countless rebirths, all sentient beings have been our parents. When we took rebirth in the human realm, we had human parents; when we took rebirth in the animal realm, we had animal parents and so forth. Samsara is such. We need to generate a sense of gratitude towards our parents in this lifetime and those of our past lives. Hence, we should be vegetarians and abstain from taking meat. In such a way, we would do good and give meaning to our practice. By doing so, our practice of the six-syllable mantra would be able to benefit ourselves and others, and also aid in the flourishing of the Dharma. There are some people who say that their doctor has advised them against becoming vegetarians, as they would suffer from malnutrition. This is a sign that the determination of these people is not strong enough. For if one has strong determination, one would avoid doing evil deeds at all cost and under any circumstances. Hence in our daily lives, we should stop committing the negative deed of eating meat. On this basis, the merits generated from our refuge and practice of the six-syllable mantra would be inconceivable. We should try to change our lifestyle towards vegetarianism. We would certainly face difficulties in becoming full vegetarians. However, when such obstacles arise, we should remember how every sentient being had at one point or another been our parents. When we remember this, then we would not take meat just as we would not eat the meat of our parents of this lifetime."

~ His Eminence Druwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche; 100 Million Six-Syllable Mantra Retreat

 

With best wishes,

A.

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Tashi Delek to all.

 

Yes...well, I need to use my imagination in order to change myself and my view, to give a new meaning to the things around me. This would be some progress! Cause the easiest way is to accept some knowledge and habits, which are on offer and which I brought them from my past lives (did you notice that I am too sensitive about warriors).

 

Thank you all, ven. Ani Ch?dr?n, Frederic and Atreju for this dialoge, which put me back on the OPEN WAY.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona {|:)

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Tashi Delek

 

I don't know much about the diet you are talking about, but I doubt that there is any strong connection between the blood type and a particular type of food one should eat.

To have a certain blood type means that we have one of the three specific genes: A, B and Rh+. In case we don’t have these genes we turn to be 0 and Rh-. Now, the human genome is composed of about 20.000 genes - just imagine, if our diet had to be chosen according to the specific combination of all those genes.

 

The digestive system is a very autonomous machine. It breaks down any food we eat into some basic nutrients that the cells can use to build the molecules they need. If you eat some protein rich food as meat, dairy or soya, they will all be turned into the same nutrients and the body will hardly know the difference.

Becoming a vegetarian is mostly a matter of principle and hardly a matter of specific body needs.

 

Yet, sometimes we may lack a gene which is involved in the digestive process. In this case, a special care as to what we eat is advisable. For example, many people (lactose intolerant) lack the enzyme lactase, which is essential in the digestion of milk and are, therefore, better off not drinking it.

 

There are some nutritional elements that are not easily found in a vegetarian diet, like vitamins B6 and B12. They are manly produced by bacteria and fungi during fermentation processes. Among some alternative sources are: dry yeast, algae, yoghurts, kefir, beer :),…

Eggs are the richest and most balanced protein source according to their amino acid composition. Of strictly vegetarian sources the most important is buckwheat (ajda, sarrasin), having a higher nutritional value even compared to meat or soja.

 

Regards, Jigme

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Tashi Delek,

It is proven that meat increases aggression in us; how could an aggressive and restless man meditate? :crunch:

We should be careful with these kind of proves, since vegetarianism is a touchy subject and scientists are also (too) often lead by desire :v . The statement in the quote is similar to the presumably proved arguments of the opposite side (skillfully unmasked by Ani-la !:! ), which claims that meat is a necessary ingredient of one's menu. Surely, it is possible to prove both, as is it so often the case with modern science :crunch: . And even if there is a correlation between eating meat and agression and restlessness, last two are not a priori negative, since they can also be a sign of individual's energy, waiting to be directed in a more spiritual way :-v .

 

I agree with Jigme that the decision for vegetarianism is a matter of principle. Meat might even be beneficial for us, but it doesn't really matter, since the reason for not eating it, is to prevent killing of the animals (but when choosing vegetarian food, one should follow science - soya e.g. triggers feminization and ought to be avoided by men). So, vegetarians who eat fishes are not really consistent ;-} . Vegetarians, who are guided by principle, should also avoid leather clothes and cosmetic products developed on the basis of experiments with animals. On the other hand, if a large number of animals were killed by e.g. natural disaster, it would be a shame to throw away all that food :maybe: .

 

Vegetarians, who forget the main principle behind their eating habits, can sometimes loose tolerance and turn into extremists (similar as anti-abortion activists, who raid the clinics and even kill doctors :loco: ).

 

If I remember correctly, His Holliness the Dalai Lama says that in Tibet it is ok to eat meat as long as it is bought on the market i.e. if the animal hasn't been killed for one particular buyer. But in the west with all the privileges of the consumer society, we should probably avoid any kind of meat, since we can afford it :% .

 

As to warriors, without Boddhicitta it is difficult to claim that the force is used with the right motivation and in the right extent. Yet, on the other hand it is also a Bodhisattva vow to use force, when needed (correct me, if I am wrong :< ). This opens a whole new debate, which would require a new thread, but it would be good to find out a Buddhist view on so-called humanitarian interventions (in Rwanda e.g. many lives could be saved by it).

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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On the other hand, if a large number of animals were killed by e.g. natural disaster, it would be a shame to throw away all that food  :maybe: .

Not wanting to be fascist ;) I would just like to ask: would a vegetarian put the above question using those particular words? :)) But, yeah, it depends on the scale of the disaster...

Otherwise there might be more meaningful things that we could do for the consciousness' of such animals. It is mentioned as very beneficial: Chenrezig mantra can be recited, visualizing Chenrezig blessing the water that you prepare beforehand, and after the practice you spill the water over the corpses. It helps the process of death and re-birth greatly. After, the corpses are burnt or burried, if I remember correctly. (I think Kyabje Zopa Rinpoche mentioned it in one of His advice)

Speaking for myself, I can say that eating meat seems to be completely against respecting animals' lives. And how could we have the slightest bit of compassion for them (wishing them to be free from all their suffering), if we don't even respect them, let alone being gentle with them in every possible way?

 

Thank you all for the debate :)

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Tashi Delek to all.

 

I think that eating meat could be result of ignorance, which makes me consider the death and the dead body are THE END, so I`m free to do with them what ever I want, need to. I remember one true story that happened during the 2. world war. There was a concentration camp for the children, who were kidnaped and later found out that they were not representatives of the perfect race at was might noticed on the first glimpse. They were settled in the camp and lived in an awful circumstances. In the winter about 100 children died each night. Those who survived had to break into smaller pieces all the dead and frozen bodies, put them into mass grave and cover them with soil. After some time, the ground where those children were buried, waved. It looked like breathing, as some survived child testimonied on the process in N?renberg.

I believe there is something greater than the death and the karma. There is something greater than myself. It is a will power of each sentient being to be free, and this never stops, it is in all bardos. By eating dead bodies I grasp a part of that sentient being in a way and hold it in samsara. I can`t know what is really happening with the body after the death, can I? I have to think about the other sentient beings, about their suffering, have to make them possible being free. There is enough space for all to be free.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi Delek,

Otherwise there might be more meaningful things that we could do for the consciousness' of such animals.

This I don't deny :v . Surely practices can be done, which help the consciousness on its way. If I remember correctly Lama Shenphen Rinpoche once said that keeping a small piece of a dead animal (like a piece of bone) and later blowing some mantra onto it, could prove beneficial for the consciousness, which once possessed the body.

 

Yet, what Atreju and Simona imply is that the way we treat a dead body is our way of showing respect for the consciousness !:! . If this were the case, we should treat human bodies with even greater respect. As we know, Tibetans are famous for their burial places, where the decaying human bodies are scattered all around, without being buried. And surely due to centuries of tradition, they have more respect than the westerners {..} .

 

Also, Shantideva says in A guide to the bodhisattva way of life: "However, it is proper to guard it (the body - note by Draftsman) for the sake of feeding the vultures and the jackets. This wretched body of humans is an instrument for action. Even though you protect it so, merciless death will snatch the body away and give it to the vultures. What will you do then (chapter five, verses 66-67)." So, if a human body eventually ends as a food for vultures, how could it be wrong to bless and dedicate the animal, which died in a natural disaster (e.g. cattle struck by a lightining) and eventually eat it -8)- ?

 

I must admit, that I am manipulating a bit :twisted: - Shantideva's verses are taken out of the context and my motivation could be preserving the remains of the attachment for meat :what!: . But the fact about Tibetan burial places is true and it is probably based on a firm belief that a dead body is eventually a piece of meat.

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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Tashi Delek,

Yet, what Atreju and Simona imply is that the way we treat a dead body is our way of showing respect for the consciousness !:! . If this were the case, we should treat human bodies with even greater respect.

Here I obviously made a mistake in logic, since consciousness is the same, regardless of the body :oops: .

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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Tashi Delek, Draftsman.

 

Mistake in logic? The mind makes the abysses, and the heart crosses them.

It is that consciousness functions throughout the body and in this sense the things we do with the body are connected to consciousness. There is no "regardless" what so ever, as the Universe lives throughout bodies, consciousnesses and everything. And bodies, consciousnesses and everything live throughout the Universe.

 

Best regards,

 

 

Simona {|:)

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Tashi Delek,

 

Two things come to my mind:

 

1. It is said that since beginningless time every single being has definetely been our own kind and loving mother, who at one point cared for us, providing us with everything we needed. It is their kindness that has brought us where we are today. Since we have had countless re-births, we have had countless mothers, so it is impossible that not every being has been our mother at least once. Is the kindness shown to us 300 or 25.000 years ago less precious than the kindness we have received in this life time? The point is: since beginningless time our survival and well-being have been again and again and again completely dependant on the kindness of our mothers. I am paraphrasing Pabongka Rinpoche in the Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand. Could we even consider eating any meat with that kind of realization? :oops:

 

2. i'm sure Tibetans know how to handle corpses, my guess is that the consciousness must have left the body by the time they entered burial grounds (some three days after death :< ); the dismembering of the body and feeding it to animals.

 

Best regards,

A.

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Tashi Delek,

I believe there is something greater than the death and the karma. There is something greater than myself. It is a will power of each sentient being to be free

I beleive the Buddhist view is that man is the sole creator of his own destiny, and that there is nothing higher than him, creating his state of being, please correct me, dear fellow Buddhists :). We produce causes that give a result according to the law of cause and effect. We have a mind that produces everything that we experience. The will to be free is also the "attitude" of the mind: seeing clearly that it's no fun being chained up :@ by its delusions :twisted: and the wheel of unbareable sufferings :(=, we want to escape it and be trully free <|:) and irreversibly happy :D . That's why we l-) and !:! and try to be as sweet as o:)s

 

Best regards :)

A.

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek

 

We should be careful with these kind of proves, since vegetarianism is a touchy subject and scientists are also (too) often lead by desire  :v .

 

Vegetarians, who forget the main principle behind their eating habits, can sometimes loose tolerance and turn into extremists

 

I agree, thank you, Draftsman. :D Anything can be turned into extremism or middle way, it depends on us how we take it.

 

What I had in mind is that animals before death usually generate a large amount of hormones connected to fear, such as adrenaline. And these hormones do not disappear after death – they remain in the flesh. When one eats it, he consumes them. Not all of these hormones are extracted from the body. They influence one's mind, just like herbs or chocolate do.

 

But even this, i guess, is just one of the many negative influences that we are consuming day after day, starting with maintaining our own negative mental patterns. :? Although, they are many, and it depends on us where we start to reduce them, it does not mean that they are good.

 

I guess vegetarianism is basically just another way of increasing our awareness and concern for all the sentient beings. And that the way of acting depends, as always, on a particualr situation and our ability to perceive it. l-) And being a vegetarian does not necessary serve as a measure of our compassion - our behaviour in different situations of everyday life mirrors it better. :%

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

I beleive the Buddhist view is that man is the sole creator of his own destiny, and that there is nothing higher than him, creating his state of being (...). We have a mind that produces everything that we experience.

 

my understanding is small and limited, but i see things as Atreju wrote. I would just add that without Buddhas and Bodhisattvas there are no achievements, but this does not change what you said about the nature of our mind, which is sometimes called the Buddha Nature.

 

Our everyday life shows that our mind experiences myriads of different states :CD :-p :loco: but it does not mean that they come from outside, some from heaven some from hell - according to Buddhism we are creators of them all, in our ignorance not knowing what we do.

 

Besides, if Enlightened consciousnes would be something extraneous to mind, how could anyone ever get Enlightened? The potential must be intrinsic to the nature of our mind. Maybe some experience glimpses of the higher states already before really reaching them, just for the taste. <|:) {|:)

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek,

The point is: since beginningless time our survival and well-being have been again and again and again completely dependant on the kindness of our mothers. ... Could we even consider eating any meat with that kind of realization? :oops:

Why not, if as Buddhists we know that this meat are not "our mother sentient beings"? Detailed explanation below :lol: .

 

2. i'm sure Tibetans know how to handle corpses, my guess is that the consciousness must have left the body by the time they entered burial grounds (some three days after death  :< ); the dismembering of the body and feeding it to animals.

We know that the consciousness leaves the body of a dead animal in a short moment (it doesn't remain for three days as it can in a human body). We also know that the Tibetans feed vultures with human flesh (human rebirth being more precious than animal). These two facts seem to suggest that eating an animal killed by a natural disaster is not against Buddhist ethics, especially if the food is dedicated and if a part of the bone is saved for future mantra blowing :% .

 

I understand that the underlying premise of Atreju's and Simona's reasoning is (implicitly in the first case and explicitly in the second) that "heart" is more powerful than "logic". Surely, this is true {-|-} , but logic is not to be forgotten, since it guides the heart and enables us to direct it in the right way. Otherwise we are in a constant danger of mixing things and even doctrines from different religions, philosophical systems :< etc.

 

The debate about eating animals killed in natural disasters might seem highly theoretical. But, let say that in a few weeks Slovenia is shaken by a heavy earthquake and that Ljubljana becomes New Orleans :(( . Surely, an animal killed in debris could represent a way of survival. And a better one, compared to chasing pets, which are still alive - during the war in Sarajevo old people used to catch pigeons with a fishing-hook in order to survive :cry: . So, in the case of a major natural disaster eating a dead animal is ok, killing an animal to survive is not ok, but could be argued for (human rebirth being more precious than animal's). How about eating dead human flesh - a moral dillema portrayed in the movie Alive? Uff, this last one brings the whole debate on a more creepy level :! .

 

My point is that even in "normal" time, eating an animal, which died of natural causes (excluding sickness and the like) is ok. Actually, I can already smell that beef roasting - mljask, mljask :CD . Sorry, I got a bit carried away :oops: .

 

What I had in mind is that animals before death usually generate a large amount of hormones connected to fear, such as adrenaline. And these hormones do not disappear after death – they remain in the flesh. When one eats it, he consumes them.

Thank You Ani-la for the explanation. This argument I heard before and seems to make sense.

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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Tashi Delek, Simona

 

On the conventional level there definetely is the creator of the state that my aggregates find themselves in. If I were free from karma, there would be no creator and no results.

Ultimatelly nothing has any intrinsic reality as you said. But right now, speaking for myself, I, or the activities of my mind, are the creator of the mind's experiences. The moment it stops to create, it can be free, liberated. But until then, I do create my destiny, without doubt, no?? :)

 

Best regards,

A.

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