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Atreju

Numbers of slaughtered animals in Slovenia

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My point is that even in "normal" time, eating an animal, which died of natural causes (excluding sickness and the like) is ok.

Do you see where logic has brought us? ;) I would still not eat meat for the reasons I mentioned before (by Pabongka Rinpoche).

Otherwise I agree with you. If there were special circumstances and it was a question of survival, I would eat meat, but would seriously have to think about eating flesh of humans, although after watching the movie Alive I said to myself that the survivors did the right thing.:crunch:

 

Best regards,

A.

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Tashi Delek, Atreju.

 

But right now, speaking for myself, I, or the activities of my mind, are the creator of the mind's experiences.  

 

Do I identify myself with the activities of my mind? Activities arises, that`s good! Yet, neither of these is me. With what do I identify myself, then if not with the phenomena that my deluded mind creates and such?

I am, beside my deluded myself, also endlessness of what is not me. And here is briefly of what is not me: endless sky, everywhere present air, firm earth, cutting fire and flowing water. In this way I understand there is something greater than deluded myself. :wink:

Something, which therefore makes me humble and grateful.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

I am, beside my deluded myself, also endlessness of what is not me. And here is briefly of what is not me: endless sky, everywhere present air, firm earth, cutting fire and flowing water. In this way I understand there is something greater than deluded myself. :wink:  

Something, which therefore makes me humble and grateful.

 

Maybe a bridge between these views is a difference between a potential and a realisation. There is for sure something surpassing our present deluded existence. But it doesn't necessary mean that it is extraneous to us.

 

The elements that you listed (space, air, earth, fire, water) are usually listed as constituents of our body and sometimes also of mind. I've read about them as the link between body and mind (Kalu Rinpoche and someone else).

 

What makes me believe in developing the potentials that we have, is interdependence and the same nature of everything, Emptiness. What makes me humble and grateful, is watching and reading Those who have realised their potentials. !:!

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek, Ani Ch?dr?n.

 

Maybe a bridge between these views is a difference between a potential and a realisation. There is for sure something surpassing our present deluded existence. But it doesn't necessary mean that it is extraneous to us.

 

If something, which surpass our deluded mind, is within us, why there would be a need for a bridge? To go where? To cross what? Space does not exist by itself and there is no "after". There is nowhere to go!

What is realized is a potential. What can`t be realized, can`t be a potential. A potential is within a realisation. Why is this so? Cause, to make something potential is the greatest realization of all.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona {|:)

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Tashi Delek Ani.la and Simona,

 

I beleive we have a "linguistic situation" on our hands ;) Ani-la and myself must have been brainwashed and conditioned by the Buddhist terminology it seems. :)) I think I know what you are aiming at, Simona. What you write about can be a nice meditation session, but I don't think it can lead to the full realization of Emptiness, I may be completely mistaken, and how would I know?? But still, meditating on Emptiness requires a considerable amount of (preliminary) "labouring" Shine (Mental Quietness) practice to be able to really perceive the subtlety of the Teachings on Emptiness. It's no picnic. Just saying or imagining that there's no way to go might give that exact result. ;) Maybe you have gone through the practice of Shine, but what I have read from the holy Teachers has one underlying tune: work work work. To become Buddha doesn't mean that you realize that you have the potential that you can become All-knowing and All-powerful. It's like the highest mountain that your imagination can fathom rising before you, and then you have to climb it with your own bare hands in the thoughest weather. This is an alegory (used by Lama Shenphen Rinpoche) but to be taken quite seriously (i added the weather and the bare hands ;)). How can we climb it without hard work? It's impossible!

 

Best regards,

A.

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I am, beside my deluded myself, also endlessness of what is not me. And here is briefly of what is not me: endless sky, everywhere present air, firm earth, cutting fire and flowing water. In this way I understand there is something greater than deluded myself. :wink:

 

But are we sure that it is not our deluded self we're experiencing, in fact, when perceiving all these phenomena? All these occurrences "out there" exist for us, only through the unique perception that we have of them, right? Could they "exist" without our mind projecting “existence” upon them? Would the concept of "Ocean" exist for us, if our ego mind wasn't there to seize it, label it and experience it? How can these phenomena be separate from us, exist outside of us, when their existence merely depends upon us perceiving, ego seizing and labeling them?

 

It's like this famous koan everyone has heard at least once in his life: "Does a tree that falls in a forest makes a noise if there is no one around to hear it?"

 

Without sentient beings' deluded mind, there would then be nothing 8O, because nothing would be there to make it exist! It’s like the movie “The Never Ending Story”, in which Atreju ;) makes it his job to save imagination from being engulfed by the nothingness which threatens it! In that case, with Shine we can encounter that nothingness and embrace it, as we will then be freed from our delusions, false beliefs and samsara…

 

We are already the ocean, already we are the air, the cutting fire and the chilling wind... We have invented all this!! Only, we just haven't realized it yet ... We're still caught up in our dual perception... And that's why we, at all cost, must protect our planet, because by polluting it everyday, destroying it, little by little we are destroying ourselves and the future generations of sentient beings that will also strive to reach enlightenment one day...

 

Thank you all for this excellent conversation!

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

I've just wanted to answer and saw that Atreju and Frederic told almost the same. :) But because i know some sad stories, i don't find it odd to write it from another angle. Simona, it is for sure not an attack to you - as Frederic, i enjoy this debate too. <|:)

 

why there would be a need for a bridge? (...) There is nowhere to go!

 

I think i understand what you mean. But i would be careful using such words, they can very easily lead to misunderstanding.

 

Our true nature IS pure, but covered with thick layers of ignorance. Subsequently, our actions are not enlightened but mostly negative. Until we are free of obscurations, we have to toil to remove them. To deny it would be to behave like an ostrich putting its head in the sand when an unpleasant sight appears. Unfortunately it's easier to generate negativities and delusions then to remove them. :? I don't know any short-cut for the lazy ones, like me. But if you hear of a super detergent removing even the heaviest stains of delusions, ;-F please let us know. :wink:

 

Seeing ourselves as already realised and following ego's wish to avoid any effort, discipline and vigilance could easily bring one to slowly give up some effort and mindfulness and at the end possibly also the practice of Dharma. :| Or even worse: to turn the practice so that it serves one's comfort and selfish needs. Being Buddhists of the Mahayana path, praying refuge prayer with Bodhicitta motivation every day, we have some responsibilities. If we took vows, like Bodhisattva vows, such a side-path would make a correspondingly more devastating breach. ''oo''

 

It is good to have a Guru who takes care that we don't miss the path to Englightenment. :wink:

 

With all the best wishes,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek,

It's like this famous koan everyone has heard at least once in his life: "Does a tree that falls in a forest makes a noise if there is no one around to hear it?"

Good point.

 

It’s like the movie “The Never Ending Story”, in which Atreju ;) makes it his job to save imagination from being engulfed by the nothingness which threatens it!

Ah, this is getting personal! :)) Imagination in the movie can be understood as goodness and kindness of people (children actually), and the nothingness that Atreju fights against is like total nihilism (to put it in Buddhist terms). :) Really nice movie, recommend it. :)

 

About the saving of our planet. I agree. ;) Just not with the whole argumentation. We are not trees and lakes and rivers and so on. We are entirely dependent on the environment: sentient beings' well-being is dependent on the fortunate conditions we live in. The way we perceive them is another matter. We can't survive without favourable environment, let alone follow a Spiritual Path and seek Happiness. The way we label trees as trees needs examination, but conventionally and ultimately ;) we need oxygen, sufficient food, shelter, etc...

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek!

I was wondering, is anybody reading this forum, who has an O+ blood type and is a vegeterian? If so, I would really like to hear your testimony, for example, how long have you been a vegetarian for, what was difficult or still is to overcome, or if you tried and "failed", what was the actual physical trouble experienced? Also, what food can we actually consume as a healthy substitute to the nutrients contained in meat?

 

I have blood group 0+, and I am vegetarian since about 3,5 years. One day I simply "forgot" about meat, I passed the meat counters when shopping, then the same happened with fish etc. After some months I ate a small piece of veal, and it caused a lot of perturbance in my stomach so I didn't touch meat again. Later, I once tried to eat a piece of squid, but the more I chewed, the more my throat tightened, so finally I had to spit it out. So, I really can't tell you much how to overcome the temptation. :wink:

 

About the other protein foods - I don't tolerate soya beans or other beans well (except mung beans), neither do I like milk. I like cheese, but I noticed that often my heart start to race after I eat it, so I am cautious with it. Eggs are OK in limited amounts.

I eat tofu sometimes, but I don't really like it, and no seitan. But I like soya meat in cubes. (Just a small tip from a Chinese acquaintance of mine: instructions usually say you should soak it and then cook it in the same water - but you better pour boiling water over it, wait for 10 minutes or until soft, then drain the water away, press the cubes out like sponges and fry them; this removes the strange taste).

 

I also think the taste is important - people with more "gentle" bloodgroups may appreciate softer tastes, and the "bloodthirsty carnivorous" bloodgroup 0-types may prefer stronger tastes. So simply replacing meat with plain "gently cooked" tofu or seitan may be hard ...

 

All the best. :)

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Tashi Delek to all.

 

One week ago I witnessed an accident in which a young boy died. I`m still recovering from the picture of what has remained from that young body. To be true, I was sick. Throughout the conversation with all of you I tried to solace myself, my deluded me, if you want. I wanted to convince myself about the meaning of the death, which happend in the most cruel way and I`m glad to have an opportunity to share it with all of you. I find your writings and you all precious.

As every moment that I live.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Dear Simona,

 

I am very sorry to hear that. I share my heart sympathies with you.  

 

With best wishes :)

A.

 

Please allow me to join myself to Atreju and share my heartfelt sympathies with you as well, Simona.

 

Wangmo, thank you very much for your testimony, it's really going to help me change my habits and quit meat for good, just like I have quit smoking for good last septembre when my way crossed the Buddhadharma.

 

All the best :),

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Tashi Delek,

 

This post prompted me into some digging through the internet and I found a simple anatomy comparison between species and their eating habits.

You may read it all or go directly to the concise summary on page 5.

http://www.vegsource.com/veg_faq/anatomy.pdf

If Frederic follows Wangmo's example, maybe Wangmo could follow his? :v

 

All the best,

Jigme

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Thanks for the document Jigme, it's a real eye-opener! That's it, from now on, I'm a veggie! :) As far as quitting smoking is concerned, come on Wangmo, you can do it guy, it's not that hard, and you won't even get fat, being a vegeterian! :wink:

 

Best regards,

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Tashi Delek,

 

If Frederic follows Wangmo's example, maybe Wangmo could follow his?  :v  

Good thing that you are a buddhist Jigme :lol: , otherwise your friendly suggestion could be followed by some hot oil being poured down Wangmo's back, as history teaches us :twisted: .

 

As far as quitting smoking is concerned, come on Wangmo, you can do it guy, it's not that hard, and you won't even get fat, being a vegeterian!

Wangmo is not a guy, or at least she is hidding it pretty well :lol: . Hmm, are you sure that vegetarian food doesn't make you fat? All that cheese, fried potatoes etc.

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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Wangmo is not a guy, or at least she is hidding it pretty well :lol: . Hmm, are you sure that vegetarian food doesn't make you fat? All that cheese, fried potatoes etc.

 

Oups, sorry for the mistake Wangmo, hope you're not mad at me :oops:

I seriously hope to loose some weight by turning into a vegetarian, I'm sure it must be easier than when you eat meat :?

 

As far as quitting smoking, I looked at it this way: either:

 

- I kept on smoking and then one day I was going to developp me a nice juicy deadly tumor (while at the same time keeping my mind in a nicotine fog...), OR :what!:

 

- I stopped right there when it was still time, let my lungs get healthier, (because when inhaling cigarette smoke we quickly destroy the cillas which allow the lungs to clean themselves, and the lungs become very dirty very quick, and I got a pretty nasty footage to illustrate my words...), breathe better and improve my concentration, and save money so I could donate it to the Three Jewels instead :wink:

 

I'll let you do the math :CD

 

Best regards,

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I doubt that there is any strong connection between the blood type and a particular type of food one should eat.

 

Indeed, this connection do exist, and has been exposed by Dr D'Adamo. The experience was rather simple in it's application: you put extract of different foods in contact with the four blood types. Some blood will remain homogeneous and some will show anti-genic reaction.

We can expect that similar reaction do happen within our organism, giving some allergies and dysfunctions, which probably can lead to some sicknesses.

 

Reppeated with many types of food, and the four blood types, gave a full list of what O, A, B or AB type of people can safely eat, and what they should better avoid:

D'Adamo web site

 

Thank you :)

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Tashi Delek,

 

Surely, to quit eating meat or not is a personal choice and decision, and one shall not be judged on this. But we shouldn't try to hide behind false excuses. We do NOT need meat at all in our nutrition. We eat meat by desire for its taste, or by facility; as in our countries we do find all to replace the proteins and vitamins.

 

I am personaly vegetarian since more than 20 years. Regularly (once a year or once every two years), my blood is checked and no lack has ever been found. It's a matter of "good sense". We do need some proteins and vitamins; removing meat requieres to compensate with some other things, such as eggs, milk products, chichpeas, tofu, saitan, etc...

 

Becoming Buddhist is to follow a complete respect for sentient beings' life, and to act in order to help as much as we can. Specially in Mahayana. It seems logical to avoid eating those we wish to help! Specially when the main reason is attachement for the taste...

 

Surely, we could say that when the life conditions are such that only meat is available to survive, there are "attenuating circumstances". Yet, we could ask also "why to stay in such circumstances"? Nowadays, circulation on the globe is easy to seek an other place to live.

 

Therefore, I would encourage all people concerned by the life and feelings of all sentient beings, to become vegetarian :)

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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I was wondering, is anybody reading this forum, who has an O+ blood type and is a vegeterian? If so, I would really like to hear your testimony, for example, how long have you been a vegetarian for, what was difficult or still is to overcome, or if you tried and "failed", what was the actual physical trouble experienced? Also, what food can we actually consume as a healthy substitute to the nutrients contained in meat?

 

Tashi Delek everybody and Frederic,

 

I answer to your question as I am a O - blood.

I know the Dr Adamo diet based on blood types.

I practiced it during three months, but I didn't eat meat (neither fish) and I felt fool of energy, even without meat!

I'm vegetarian since 30 years and it was the best decision with taking Refuge in my life: both things I never regret at all! :D

 

As everything is the result of our karmas, we must keep in mind what we really want: happiness or suffering?

if we continue to cherish ourselves, pretending we cannot survive without meat, which means the death of sentient beings, we cannot hope happy consequences for that!

we cannot pretend to be buddhist, to respect the life, have compassion for sentient beings and perseverate being a flesh eater!

 

Imagine if everybody, in total and pure compassion, decide to stop to eat meat- cows, sheep, pigs, hens, ducks, rabbits, deers, hares, boars-, fish, oysters, snails, frogs, snakes dogs, cats, insects and so on..at this very moment, millions of millions of sentient beings would save their life.

 

An incredible quantity of blood would stop to flew everywhere on the earth, and people would stop to create an unbelievable amount of negative karmas with their terrible results of suffering for themselves...

 

Here is the point, if we are sincere, if we really want to stop unbereable sufferings we can do it, here and now. It is a personal choice, our mere responsability.

 

Best regards

 

Ani Chönyi

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I was wondering, is anybody reading this forum, who has an O+ blood type and is a vegeterian?

 

I have 0+ blood type and I didn't eat meat almost one year, maybe more or less, anyhow, my health is ok, my blood is very good, I think that eating vegetables, fruits, and other non-meat food in right combination it is enough for our body, but you can ask yourself what does meat have what vegetables, fruits and non-meat food don’t have, that is just my opinion.

All the best!

Tchokyi :D

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Tashi Delek,

 

It seems that meat industry represents only half or less of the industry living off killing animals :cry: . So, here is some information about the leather industry. A known Slovene firm, which can hardly be considered a big player on the world leather market, has sold 3.5 millions m2 of leather in the year 2003 only (www.iuv.si - also in English). You can count for yourself, how many pigs fit in this equasion :((. Not to mention, that leather industry if one of the worst polluters :crunch:.

 

So, cars with leather seats everyone can avoid, the same goes for leather clothes, sofas, chairs etc. But it is probably quite difficult to avoid buying leather shoes, belts, suitcases and bags - as especially women know very well :lol: . Any idea?

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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"So, cars with leather seats everyone can avoid, the same goes for leather clothes, sofas, chairs etc. But it is probably quite difficult to avoid buying leather shoes, belts, suitcases and bags - as especially women know very well :lol: . Any idea?"

 

I agree completley ! :)

 

But then again i found some pictures in the book of Dalai Lama with tibetan monks wearing fur hats and coats or i beg your pardon at least it seamed so :<

 

And what should it be done when a fur is owned o:) What is the best way to handle it :?:

 

Best regards, Jure

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Tashi Delek,

tibetan monks wearing fur hats and coats or i beg your pardon at least it seamed so  :

Middle Way, always. When you kill an animal for your survival, as in some places of Tibet, you are anyhow left with the fur and leather. Better then to use it to survive, not from hunger this time but from cold!

 

There is also a difference between a leather jacket, made out of one of two big animals anyhow killed for the meat, and a fur coat from so many small animals raised to be killed for this fur.

Difference also between leather shoes from a cow (many shoes in one cow skin) and a hand-bag from crocodile.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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But it is probably quite difficult to avoid buying leather shoes, belts, suitcases and bags - as especially women know very well :lol: . Any idea?

Now as we ascertained that I am a woman :lol: I think I can supply some comments to this:

You can buy most of these items made from synthetic fibres which have additional benefits - you can wash them, they keep their shape and colour, they have less weight and are much cheaper. :D

And especially since the invention of microfibres there isn't much to say for the usage of leather. Before, you could perhaps say that you can't wear winter shoes made of fabric because fabric isn't waterproof - now you have textile shoes which are actually more waterproof than leather ones.

 

But, I would ask myself how many animals are actually killed just to get leather? As I understand, leather is more a by-product, as the animals are killed for the meat, and then the skin is sold to a leather-factory ... So the problem is more the killing of animals for meat (again).

Of course, this doesn't count with fur, silk and exotic leather forms (snakeskin etc.)

 

Best wishes. :)

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