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mavrica

direct way out of samsaric circle

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Tashi delek everybody,

 

yesterday I was talking to a friend who just stepped on his chosen spiritual path. he tried many ways by now and has never found "the right one" for himself. but this one seems to be what he was looking for. i am happy for him, but still there were so many questions arising inside me after he told me his experience.

 

he says this certain spiritual path he is following (never heard of it before) is very strict and demands lots of discipline from him. he has to be vegetarian, meditate minimum 3 hours per day and follow his master unconditionally.

he has to be careful not to do any bad or even good deeds, because they would both tie him onto the samsaric circle of existence.

on one of the retreats his master gave him some sort of iniciation through which all of his karma from countless times has been erased and now he is "pure". but he has to be very aware of not doing ANYTHING because that would mean he has to be reborn again.

 

that I don't really understand. is it not so that by doing good deeds one cleanses his bad karma and it does good for him? my friend says that it is so because we are then "in debt" to each other and even when you do a good deed for someone this means you would definitely have to be reborn so that the other person can "pay you back".

 

and I also don't understand how such erasing of all karma is possible. can it make damage to a person? i somehow compare it to those "prostrations under proper conditions and guidance", but even there a person has to make its own effort, he has to be at least physically (and mentally) active! by this type of iniciation that friend was talking about, a person doesn't have to do anything. everything is done by the master in his name and his benefit but without any effort. 8O :? :?: can that be so?

 

my friend believes that following this master will lead him directly out of samsaric circle.

 

can somebody tell me more about this?? I am really curious. :?

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Tashi Delek Mavrica, everybody,

 

Concerning your friend, I am not too sure what to think about that :? In the Mahayana it is said that bodhisattvas must, amongst others, practice the 6 paramitas (one of them being generosity) and then dedicate all their accumulated good deeds, prayers and merits to all sentient beings and/or the Three Jewels, and seal dedication with a thought on emptiness... This dedication will turn their accumulated merits towards all sentient beings, so that they actually benefit all sentient beings as well as their creator, and do not come back only to their own mind stream. Therefore we can all make faster progression on the path towards enlightenment by having created or having been dedicated the proper spiritual causes...

 

Without wanting to criticize at all, but your friend's method sounds rather like a Hinayana method to me, where the disciples strive to reach enlightenment only for themselves, and not for all sentient beings... But maybe I'm wrong, maybe he has previously created the proper causes so that in this life his complete enlightenment will be quickly realized... That would be fantastic!

 

Is it dangerous for us to have no more karmic imprints on our mindstreams, I would say, definitely no, since being free from karmic influence is the only way we can be free from samsara for good, for us (Pratieka Buddhas) or for all sentient beings (fully accomplished Buddhas)... So it is rather very good for your friend that he has been freed from all his accumulated karmic debt!!! Hopefully he is doing it for the rest of us as well, by having dedicated the spiritual merits his initiations must have created, to all mother sentient beings... :)

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Tashi Delek.

 

all of his karma from countless times has been erased and now he is "pure". but he has to be very aware of not doing ANYTHING because that would mean he has to be reborn again.

 

And a causes, because of which your friend still moves, breaths, eats, sleeps, dreams, walks, talks, with one word = LIVES, have not been erased, though? I believe that if practisioners are becoming rigid in their true lifes, there have to be something wrong with their practice. Because practice and meditation should to make one even more alive, more aware, more responsible, more active, more positive in the true life. To not doing anything it is to DENY to be ALIVE.

But, this is just my opinion.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi Delek,

by this type of iniciation that friend was talking about, a person doesn't have to do anything. everything is done by the master in his name and his benefit but without any effort.  8O  :?  :?:  can that be so?

As far as I know there is NO such thing as somebody (a "Master" or whoever) granting you Liberation! A true Teacher will teach the Path, and the student can follow, if he chooses. To say to somebody "Don't do anything, not a thing, I will take care of it all." sounds like a very dangerous mind-manipulation, if the person chooses to really go along with such complete non-sense!

 

Recently I listened to a Teaching by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, where He spoke of three counless eons one needs to collect merits to become a Buddha. The first countless eon refers to becoming a first bhumi Bodhisattva (realizing Emptiness, Liberation from Samsara). To collect this huge amount of merit one needs to be very active in virtue, ethics, compassion, doing everything with a strong motivation to help the others. "Not doing anything" would be like "putting the cart infront of the horse" to put it mildly.

 

No qualified Buddhist Teacher, or any other teacher with a sane mind, would give misleading advice like that.

 

With best wishes,

Khyenrab

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

not doing ANYTHING because that would mean he has to be reborn again.

(…) everything is done by the master in his name

 

It would be very comfortable, no wander that your friend is attracted to it. :) But according to Buddhist teachings no one can take away or influence person’s karma, otherwise we would have already been enlightened - Buddhas and Bodhisattvas would have already wiped all our negativities away. Because this is not so, we have to put some effort in it ourselves, under the guidance of a qualified spiritual master. :D

 

It is true that any karmic imprints that we create hold us to samsara. But until we realise Emptiness we cannot stop generating it, so it is better to create positive karma, which will support us on our way towards Enlightenment and avoid creating negative one. ;-F

 

Not creating karma does not mean avoiding any action - as you know, Bodhisattvas help all the sentient beings !:! - but absence of clinging, aversion or misconception while trying to act in the best possible way and perfect their Wisdom and Methods.

 

your friend's method sounds rather like a Hinayana method to me

 

Maybe this is clear, but for any case: Hinayana and Mahayana methods to reach Emptiness - to become liberated from the cycle of existence - are rather similar: based on pacification of the mind and meditation on Emptiness. The main difference lies in motivation (to liberate all sentient beings, in case of Mahayana).

We are very much on the Hinayana path, even if we belong to the Vajrayana. Before really reaching the Mahayana path, before realising true Bodhicitta, for most of us there is still quite some work to be done. {..} l-) !:! {..} l-) :))

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi delek,:hello:

 

he has to be careful not to do any bad or even good deeds, because they would both tie him onto the samsaric circle of existence.

 

In Buddhism it is sayed as long bad or good karma is accumulated, there will be rebirth according to your karma.

To get people out of samsara , negative karma has to be cleared off and more positive karma should be build up. This positive karma will then lead of being able to go beyond karma. When there is no more person who could experience karma, no karma can be performed, so no more samsara.

So when bad karma is eliminated but there is lots of good karma, this good karma" the merit " will be the cause of being able to realize emptiness. Samsara is over.

 

 

on one of the retreats his master gave him some sort of iniciation through which all of his karma from countless times has been erased and now he is "pure".

-oh sounds like charlatan

 

but he has to be very aware of not doing ANYTHING because that would mean he has to be reborn

- this is even worse than charlatan, now making him afraid! Maybe your friend must get from now on student of a kataton schizophrenic guy, who is never moving, for that your friend is learning not to accumulate anymore " active karma " ( at least )with his body and speech. But still there is karma of mind and the karma of not doing anything with body and speech. So bad news for your friend. This is mission impossible !

 

because we are then "in debt" to each other and even when you do a good deed for someone this means you would definitely have to be reborn so that the other person can "pay you back".

- Then he has no idea about what karma is,nor does his teacher know about. Karma means cause and condition. So it means action.

So your friend should also be afraid of going to toilett, because going to toilett is also under cause and conditions. If he drinks because of karma he has to go soon to toilett and make...

As long as there is self there will be karma, this you should tell your friend.

 

my friend believes that following this master will lead him directly out of samsaric circle.  

Samsara means basically suffering. I think your friend will have a hard time to overcome samsara while trying not to create any karma, which will be impossible for him, while being permanently under the pressure not to create karma, alone this pressure itself is suffering, called samsara.

 

Wow, he found a great charalatan misusing buddhist terms! I think to separate your friend from this charlatan would be a great Bodhisattva deed.

 

With all my best wishes

Csillag

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Just wanted to add, the Buddha Himself taught:

 

"I show you the Path to Liberation,

whether you attain it or not is up to you."

 

And as Ani-la mentioned, the Buddhas would have already freed all of us out of their great Compassion, if it were possible. :)

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Tashi delek everybody

 

and thank you for your opinions and thoughts. I admit that my friend's path does not seem a good idea to me either. and as you said, not doing anything is a really impossible state of being.

and I feel that this guy actually is afraid to do anything wrong which would upset his master. but the truth is that we are not so close that he would care for my advice but rather take it as yet another action of intolerance toward him.

 

as far as I know he doesn't want to attain liberation for any other being but himself.

 

but I guess I am not to judge people. I am not without mistakes myself. and I don't feel to be so wise and don't know so much about buddhism that I could lead a proper conversation with him, concerning buddhist way. :(

 

perhaps this is one of the experiences he has to go through himself ... I honestly don't know. all I know is that he is very strongly convinced that he is doing the right thing and I know that generally he is a good person not wanting to harm other people.

 

I was never really good at persuading other people that what they are doing could harm them ... I don't know why. I somehow always believed that I could make things even worse for them if I got involved into their way of acting or believing. perhaps this is an old leftover from one of my pastlives, who knows. :?

and I always tend to believe that "everything will be okay in the end" and that "the karmatic equilibrium" will take its place when appropriate. perhaps I am also simply performing one way of non-acting (by which I may do harm rather than help) ... :cry:

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Tashi Delek dear Rainbow :)

 

It would be very good to tell the name of this "teacher", make it public, he is putting others and himself in great danger.

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek dear Rainbow :)

 

It would be very good to tell the name of this "teacher", make it public, he is putting others and himself in great danger.

 

I am sorry but I forgot it. :roll: he has a very ... forgettable name. starts with a letter "S", I think. didn't help you much, huh?

 

he is some guy from India and leads his retreats in Italy (and probably other countries too). his philosophy also involves some kind of theories of "rays" that saints are born on (like "the ray of helper", "the ray of the liberator" - this is where this master claims to come from etc.) ... they are putting Jesus, Buddha, Sai Baba etc in the same pot. and his followers have already started their meditation groups all over our country. that scares me actually.

but since I haven't heard the whole story about this masters way, I cannot judge. perhaps his intentions do have some positive effects.

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Maybe inquire a little bit more, and remember? ;)

but since I haven't heard the whole story about this masters way, I cannot judge. perhaps his intentions do have some positive effects.

Given what you started this topic with, I seriously doubt that.

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I will ask him tomorrow though I doubt that knowing his name would be of any good. there are countless people claiming to be "masters" of various spiritual paths ... and there will always be, I guess.

my point is more in awareness to recognizing such "teachers" who usually have strong influence on people and can therefore indeed propose a danger. it is an old news that the world is full of charlatans and false prophets. for example, I've heard countless negative stories about Sai Baba and have seen the documentary on his frauds, but all such revelations don't seem to stop people from joining him. you can find Sai Baba meditation groups and study circles all over Slovenija and the world.

and the other part of the story is that he built many schools and hospitals for poor people. what is happening in there, is another story, but this is not the place to discuss that. public generally sees the good deeds he made.

 

so, could you mark this as either good or bad?

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Tashi Delek,

my point is more in awareness to recognizing such "teachers" who usually have strong influence on people and can therefore indeed propose a danger.

I agree. Good point.

 

It is essential to know that one is following a qualified Teacher. Some basic qualities from here:

 

1. a healthy relationship with his or her own spiritual teachers,

2. more knowledge of the Dharma than the student,

3. experience and some level of success in applying its methods in meditation and in everyday life,

4. the ability to set an inspiring example of the beneficial results of applying the Dharma to life. This means having:

5. ethical self-discipline,

6. emotional maturity and stability, based on freedom from gross emotional problems,

7. sincere concern to benefit students as the primary motivation for teaching,

8. patience in teaching,

9. lack of pretense (not pretending to have qualities that he or she lacks) and lack of hypocrisy (not hiding faults that he or she has, such as lack of knowledge and experience).

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek dear Mavrica,

it is an old news that the world is full of charlatans and false prophets. for example, I've heard countless negative stories about Sai Baba and have seen the documentary on his frauds, but all such revelations don't seem to stop people from joining him. you can find Sai Baba meditation groups and study circles all over Slovenija and the world.  

and the other part of the story is that he built many schools and hospitals for poor people. what is happening in there, is another story, but this is not the place to discuss that. public generally sees the good deeds he made.

I am sure you meant nothing bad with the quoted statement and I agree that this is not the place to discuss it, but the word is out and better to give some explanation here and now, before the gossip starts. I am not a Sai Baba follower, but I happen to know some, who have been for years and who also symphatize with Buddhism. Their experience is obviously very different from the people who made the documentaries and told you the stories.

 

We shoud be careful, when declaring "who is a fake or who is not". With public personalities one always finds followers and opposers (even with His Holliness the Dalai Lama). Speaking of His Holliness - He once met with Sai Baba :wink: .

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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Tashi Delek,

 

I realize my post could suggest that I was in favour of those abuse claims against Sai Baba. My feeling has always been that they are not true, made by people who have the intention to hurt, and who find it easy to lie, say nasty things and gossip.

A few years back I read his books and found them inspirational, I thought there was deep ethics and love behind them. :)

Yet, he is not a Buddhist Teacher, obviously.

 

Best wishes,

Khyenrab

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well, this is something as I was talking about. it is very easy to slip into accusations in the name of promoting "the only valid" path to liberation. of course I meant nothing bad with mentioning Sai Baba (I could just as well speak of someone else), I merely expressed my own understanding of the situation after I met and read about people (both the one that still follow him and the ones who had bad experience).

I agree that his philosophy helps many people. but truth has many faces and I also cannot be sure that he did not harm some of his followers. I personally don't believe that everybody who spoke out about his bad experience is just a liar and pretender. after all, even saints and teachers are still just human beings and it can happen to anyone that he loses control over his behaviour and does something that he himself has been preaching against.

I may be wrong, but this is my personal opinion.

 

we all agree that a person should very carefully examine his (future) teacher to see that he acts as he teaches etc etc. if one only reads the books that "the teacher" wrote and they are full of love and deep ethics, does that instantly and without consideration mean the teacher is qualified and honest? should that person not listen to the other side too? I believe this to be some kind of a precaution to letting yourself be blinded by the fraud or charlatan. questioning teachers is a completely acceptable thing - to the point when you find the one that sincerely "meets the criteria" you have been searching for. then the unconditional following begins. please correct me if I got this wrong.

 

as we people are different, we walk different paths. in the end, I believe, we all get to the same point (the point which various religions name differently).

 

but still, some spiritual ways are more appreciated than others - so there comes to diferentiation between "main" religions and sects. I guess we cannot help ourselves, due to our limited knowledge and lack of true compassion, to judge - that is, to see the world mostly through our favorite religion's glasses. which is to some point quite normal. if I were talking about this in the christian forum, I would probably use different terminology and we could still be discussing the same thing. I feel that buddhism (more than any other religion that I know) has a wonderful way of tolerance toward different beliefs and religions and this is one of the reasons why I chose it.

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Tashi Delek,

we all agree that a person should very carefully examine his (future) teacher to see that he acts as he teaches etc etc. if one only reads the books that "the teacher" wrote and they are full of love and deep ethics, does that instantly and without consideration mean the teacher is qualified and honest? should that person not listen to the other side too? I believe this to be some kind of a precaution to letting yourself be blinded by the fraud or charlatan. questioning teachers is a completely acceptable thing - to the point when you find the one that sincerely "meets the criteria" you have been searching for. then the unconditional following begins. please correct me if I got this wrong.

I think you got that right. Relying on one specific Teacher is a most delicate thing.

But we should be careful and not say bad things about any teacher that we are not completely sure of. Spreading gossip about a Bodhisattva or a Buddha cannot be good karma. Testing of any teacher should be done with a good heart, a positive motivation, and when one sees that this teacher isn't the one to follow, one should be very careful not to say things that are not true, out of sheer disappointment.

I've never met Sai Baba, but my feeling is that he is not a fraud, so I would think twice about rumours about him. And I would think three times about spreading any "hear-say".

 

 after all, even saints and teachers are still just human beings and it can happen to anyone that he loses control over his behaviour and does something that he himself has been preaching against.

In Buddhism Guru devotion is very important. It basically means seeing your Guru to be Buddha.

 

as we people are different, we walk different paths. in the end, I believe, we all get to the same point (the point which various religions name differently).

His Holiness teaches that there are some basic similarities within all major religious traditions such as: ethics, forgiveness, love, compassion, self-discipline, etc...

But we could say that there are quite some big differences, not just linguistic, when you engage more in Buddhism.

As far as I know only the Buddha taught the Teachings on Emptiness and Bodhicitta, right? There is no talk of becoming a fully enlightened Buddha oneself in Christianity, right? Or becoming actually free from the cause of re-birth? :)

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek,

of course I meant nothing bad with mentioning Sai Baba ...

I agree that his philosophy helps many people. but truth has many faces and I also cannot be sure that he did not harm some of his followers. I personally don't believe that everybody who spoke out about his bad experience is just a liar and pretender.

Public personalities in a way function as a "projection screen", so it is probably difficult for people to stay neutral towards them. Bias could be even unconscious. But I guess it is possible to be neutral. :D

 

It also seems difficult to judge, who is a Buddha or a Boddhisattva and what kind of wisdom a certain person possesses. Kyabje Zopa Rinpoche quotes this part in His short text "Seeing the Guru as Buddha": "Whatever actions are done by the qualified, precious guru - all are good; And whatever actions are done are all quality. Even if the actions of butchering or killing humans are done, it is meaningful and good. It is definite that sentient beings are guided with compassion." A bit confusing isn't it? :crunch:

 

It is known, that Buddha Sakyamuni killed a person, when he was still a Bodhisattva in order to prevent him from killing 500 other people. Another story tells about the first time Naropa or Tilopa (I am not sure), met his enlightened soon-to-be-teacher. He was roasting fishes and singing. The soon-to-be-disciple was terrified at the karma he created to see an enlightened being in such state. So, he didn't question the teacher's authenticity but his own.

 

Obviously Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have a lot of information at their disposal (seeing past and future lives), so their ways (their wisdom !:! ) might be difficult to grasp for us ordinary beings with limited understanding :< . Surely, they do the best they can with the poor karma we create :oops: . All this probably makes it that much harder to test a proper teacher or to judge his authenticity (or authenticity of other people in general).

 

after all, even saints and teachers are still just human beings and it can happen to anyone that he loses control over his behaviour and does something that he himself has been preaching against.

Isn't it said that Buddhas and Boddhisattvas emanate by their own will with the sole purpose of helping sentient beings, who created the required karma? So they might not be "just human beings", but this is a question for someone, who has more knowledge about Buddhism :wink: .

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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It is known, that Buddha Sakyamuni killed a person, when he was still a Bodhisattva in order to prevent him from killing 500 other people.

 

Too bad there were no Bodhisattvas around during WW2 who were "clearsighted" enough to see what was about to happen and take the necessary corrective actions...

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Another story tells about the first time Naropa or Tilopa (I am not sure), met his enlightened soon-to-be-teacher.

 

The student was Naropa, the master was Tilopa, the book in French is called "La Vie de Naropa: Tonerre de Grande Béatitude" which means in English something like "The life of Naropa: Thunder of Great Happiness" (although there must be a better English word to translate "Béatitude", which means a state of undescribable happiness...).

 

And here is a "little" present from Keith Downman's website (I googled the name Tilopa):

 

Tilopa's instruction to Naropa

 

Best regards,

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Tashi Delek, Frederic.

 

Too bad there were no Bodhisattvas around during WW2 who were "clearsighted" enough to see what was about to happen and take the necessary corrective actions...

 

“We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.”

Viktor E. Frankl (1905-1997)

 

What is a difference between the Boddhisattva and the enlightenend being? Is there any?

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi Delek :)

What is a difference between the Boddhisattva and the enlightenend being? Is there any?

A Bodhisattva is a being who irreversibly strives towards Buddhahood, he/she has realized Bodhicitta, the Awakening Mind and has thus become a Mahayana practitioner. He/she wants to benefit all beings by becoming a Buddha him/herself. A Buddha is a being who has reached the state of complete Enlightenment (Omniscience).

The Path to Buddhahood is graduated, a Bodhisattva must travel through ten stages (bhumis) of realizations to become a Buddha. More here.

 

Explanation of Bodhicitta (the essential practice of a Bodhisattva) from here by Geshe Rabten Rinpoche:

 

"Hinayana practitioners are those who find samsara unbearable and want to escape from it into the state of nirvana. They help others enormously by renouncing the world and striving to obtain freedom, but their main thought is personal liberation from samsara. An arhat—one who has completed this path of personal liberation—has many spiritual powers, and can give spiritual teaching and aid to many beings, but still has to remove jneyavarana. The attainment of nirvana will prove not to be sufficient and the arhat will then have to enter the bodhisattva path and progress through the ten levels to the final, complete buddhahood.

 

Those who practise Mahayana also renounce samsara and want to escape from it. But because they identify with all other beings in samsara, Mahayanists do not want merely personal liberation. Through their great concern for others, Mahayanists' all-motivating wish is to give complete happiness to all beings. They understand first that all beings in samsara—insects, devas and the rest—are equal in that they all want happiness and do not want suffering. They also perceive that none of these beings has the satisfaction of complete happiness. For this reason, they develop the great wish to take all beings out of suffering. This wish, which is also a kind of caitta, is called mahakarunika, "the great compassionate one." Mahayana practitioners realize that all beings in samsara, though they may have transitory happiness, do not have true, lasting, happiness.

 

The next wish, that of giving all beings the ultimate happiness of buddhahood is called mahamaitreya, "the great wish of active love." These wishes are stronger than the dissatisfaction of the Hinayana follower. Before this stage of aspiration is reached, there are many other practices that have to be developed so that Mahayanists can fully realize the suffering of beings.

 

At first they want to bring all beings to enlightenment without any help. This is called adicinta, "the first thought." Then, when they examine themselves to see if they have enough power to do so alone, they find that the same defilements that other beings have exist within themselves as well. Thus they try to find who does have the power to help others in this way. Through this they find that only a buddha can do so, and develop the wish to reach the buddha stage quickly. This is bodhicitta 12, "the mind dedicated to enlightenment."

 

When one has practised this a great deal, mahakarunika, mahamaitreya, adicinta and bodhicitta become part of the person's very nature. At this point the practitioner becomes a bodhisattva, though not yet an arya-bodhisattva—a very advanced bodhisattva, who has seen emptiness clearly. When the practitioner reaches the high state of a bodhisattva, all the devas pay respect. Once bodhicitta has arisen, the seed of Dharma will continue to grow whether the person is awake or asleep, and even very harmful karma can be prevented from ripening.

 

Usually, people can remove mental defilements only by meditation on emptiness. Bodhicitta makes meditation on emptiness much more powerful. When a soldier is fighting an enemy he needs to use his weapon, but he also needs to have good food; bodhicitta is like this food."

 

Hope this helps. :)

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Thanks a lot Khyenrab!

 

Just a small precision, to make things completely clear for Simona.

 

Mathematics class :wink: :

 

Bodhisattva = Bodhi + Sattva

 

Bodhi = Awakening

Sattva = Hero

 

So litterally, a Bodhisattva, because he or she has chosen to dedicate his or her existences exclusively to reaching enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings, has chosen to live as a Hero for the Awakening.

 

Best regards :)

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Tashi Delek.

 

Frederic and Khyenrab, thank you for the answers. Understood. The difference is that a man from the concentration camp, there was a choise given to him about choosing the way he would act. He could also act as a closehearted. Yet, to the Bodhisattva, no such choise is given to him...if we think deeply.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Yet, to the Bodhisattva, no such choise is given to him...if we think deeply.

 

I wouldn't say it like that Simona. Rather, a human being who has decided with full knowledge to engage into the path of a Bodhisattva and who has taken the Bodhisattva vows, has chosen never to act as a closehearted ever again! In other words, he or she has banned selfishness from his or her heart, because he or she has realized that the ignorance of selfishness could only bring more suffering upon him or herself, and keep him or her away from the ultimate goal of reaching enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings... In the end, it's all a matter of choice, motivation and strength (a whole lot!), and if you ask me, choosing the Bodhisattva "way of life" and "sticking with it", is the most valid way a human being can lead his/her life...

 

Best regards,

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