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Pamo

Emptiness

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Tashi Delek dear all,

 

from the article of Thubten Yeshe "Where Are You And Where Can You Be Found?":

"Beyond the name, there is no real Thubten Yeshe existing somewhere. But the simultaneously born ego doesn’t understand that Thubten Yeshe exists merely as an interdependent combination of parts. "

 

What if we looked at the phenomenon, let's say a chair, and just pointed at it without giving it any special name, could we say that 'this what we perceive at this moment, this "interdependent combination of parts", at this moment-to-moment period of time exists? (jumpy in its constants process of change :) , but still in this way exists?)

 

Thank you.

 

All the very best,

Pamo

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Tashi Delek.

 

I think that giving a name or not is not of much value. What counts is the way of the perception. To see a chair as "interdependent combination of parts" definitely is a step further. Yet, a chair is a "interdependent combination of not-self parts (substances)". For example, a chair is cool. Is the coolness its own part? No, it is simply no one`s quality in which a chair happen to be sharing at one moment.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Ok. I am also looking forward to other possible replies. Though, the name counts, you know. ;) The wise say so. ;)

If you read the article you'll see what I mean. It's also called labelling, if you met this better in your readings, contemplating...acquiring that broad knowledge that you have.

all the very best,

pamo

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What if we looked at the phenomenon, let's say a chair, and just pointed at it without giving it any special name, could we say that 'this what we perceive at this moment, this "interdependent combination of parts", at this moment-to-moment period of time exists? (jumpy in its constants process of change :) , but still in this way exists?)

 

Tashi Delek Pamo,

 

From what I understand of emptiness, you can look at things in two ways: relatively, and ultimately... Relatively, even if you don't name this phenomena (chair) that you perceive, it is there, you can interact with it, if you kick it, you'll get hurt, right? You can interact with it because you still have the 5 aggregates and your ignorance which are keeping your mind prisoner of relative reality...

 

Now, ultimately, that's right, there is no "chair" on the side of the chair, it's empty of independent existence, it's not really there. Relatively an interdependent combination of empty parts is there, can be perceived by our aggregates and our minds can wrongly attribute to it an independent existence by labeling it chair and believing that it exists on its own side, that it has an existing essence of chair, you see, that it exists outside of the label and the false belief our minds have projected onto it. But ultimately, there is no chair on the side of the chair, on the side of the chair, there is nothing, absolutely nothing... It's empty, just like everything else, just like our minds... Ultimately, everything resolves into emptiness, this is the real mode of existence of all things... Everything is empty on its own side, it only exists relatively as a label that our minds have projected onto it and according to how our minds will interact with it (karma)... Our mistaken minds are thus responsible for everything that happens to us in this life... There's nothing outside of our mistaken minds. Relatively you see, it's all an ego trip! :lol: Ultimately, nothing's there, it's all empty, unlimited, unqualified, unlabeled, peaceful :wink:

 

Maybe that helps you a little, hopefully it's not too wrong :)

 

Best regards,

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Tashi Delek, Pamo.

 

Though, the name counts, you know.

 

 

From the article: "He simply explained that relative phenomena exist but that we should view them in a reasonable way. They come, they go; they grow; they die. They receive various names and in that way gain a degree of reality for the relative mind. But that mind does not see the deeper nature of phenomena; it does not perceive the totality of universal existence."

 

Names do not counts in the way that they are only a part of the relative mind, on which one can not count in the process of deeper understanding of emptiness. And this topic is about the emptiness, isn`t it? It is interesting, how could be the same article read by two different people, differently.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Right there you will find a rather interesting text about Sunyata:

 

Sunyata

 

Here is a sentence I'm sure some of you will find particularly interesting :wink: :

 

"Experiments in quantum physics seem to demonstrate the need for an observer to be present to make potentialities become real."

 

Some materials for analytical l-)

 

Best regards,

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Tashi Delek,

I was checking my understanding; I think it might have been about where is the half-way (not in the linear way though) between the conventional and ultimate...I am not still sure...thank you both...

All the very best,

Pamo

p.s. what if I asked you (kindly :) ) to answer the above question :% with yes or no; and you would be willing to do that ;) what would it be? 8)

:hello:

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Tashi Delek Pamo,

 

Then my unrealized mind's kind answer would be Yes. :) The valid base on which the mind can make its imputation exists, otherwise there would be no possible imputation. But that is all that exists, a valid base. Where some might believe that a real chair exists on its own side, nope, there exists only this valid, empty, impermanent base, and then our minds impute it its name according to human world conditioning... And then believe that it truly exists on its own side!!! (ignorance... :wink: ). It's the same with Tubten Yeshe's bubble of relativity...

 

Note that I have read that truly realized masters consider what they perceive and experience in samsara as being only the reflection of their mind's merits... Also in one of his books, Bokar Rinpotche states that all we are is "mind observing mind", the observer being the emptiness of the mind and the observee, the luminous quality of the mind... So what we perceive and what is being perceived are in fact undifferenciated, unlike most of us tend to think...

 

All the best,

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Tashi Delek Frederic,

 

Then my unrealized mind's kind answer would be Yes.  :)

{-|-}

 

So what we perceive and what is being perceived are in fact undifferenciated, unlike most of us tend to think...

About this I only read and listen for the time being...

Thanks.

 

All the very best,

Pamo

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Tashi Delek,

 

....But that is all that exists, a valid base.

 

What do you mean exactly by saying valid ? :loco:

 

Best wishes

 

Jure

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What do you mean exactly by saying valid ?

 

Tashi Delek,

 

From what I have read of Lama Zopa's work, for realized masters, a valid base is the base of the object onto which you may correctly impute such and such name... For example, the valid base for the imputation of the name "chair" is this physical phenomena made out of wood or iron, which has four legs and onto which a human sentient being may sit on for work, meditation or relaxation purposes... If you impute a name on a base which is not valid (doesn't correspond to its valid designation), then that probably means you are :loco: :lol: or completely mistaken :/ ...

 

Such is my understanding of the valid base... :)

 

All the best,

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Tashi Delek, Pamo

 

the article of Thubten Yeshe "Where Are You And Where Can You Be Found?":  

"Pamo

 

Where is possible to find this article ?

 

Best wishes

 

Jure

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Tashi Delek dear Jure,

it is linked by Kyenrab in the thread with a title "Spiritual progress behind the walls", page one, post six. I am sorry I cannot make you a link :< Pamo

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