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Simona

Where is death

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Tashi Delek.

 

Do the bardo body, which is taking over during two lives, and the dream body, which is taking over during sleeping and the subtile body, which is taking over in the gods, demi gods, spirits and hell realms have the same characteristics? Could be considered that all these subtile bodies are the subtile forms of the life? So, where is death, then?

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi delek,

Do the bardo body, which is taking over during two lives

 

Do you mean: "between two lives"?

 

and the subtile body, which is taking over in the gods, demi gods, spirits and hell realms have the same characteristics? Could be considered that all these subtile bodies are the subtile forms of the life? So, where is death, then?

 

I am not sure to understand the question right. But these subtiles bodies are like "clothes" taken by our consciousness. You wear human clothes "physical body" the day time; when you go to sleep, you take clothes "dream body". But between day and sleep, you change only the superficial clothes.

When you die, you change all your clothes, and take the clothes "bardo body", up to the next rebirth. If you go to gods realm, ghosts, or hells, you will wear corresponding clothes...

 

What we do call "death" is the changing moment between two types of clothes. Well, of course there are deathes which have deeper consequences, for they separate us radically from a previous state of existence.

 

These death which make to pass from a state of existence to another are terrifying us 1. because we do not remember to have passed through this unnumerable amount of times before; 2. because we are losing contact with our objects of attachement (people, wealth).

Why this is happening so? Because of our lack of Wisdom. With Wisdom realised, the Wisdom related to the true nature of phenomena, we wouldn't lose our consciousness during these deaths; but change states consciously.

 

Where is death you ask? It is where we put it...

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Tashi Delek, Lama Shenphen Rinpoche.

 

Thank You for the answer, which is of great help.

 

Yes, it was meant "between".

 

To cope with death, one have to locate it (death as a state of the mind) outside oneself mental continuum, somewhere one can visit, but which one can also leave. In this meaning “the changing moment” is kind of a dressing room, in which one enter, change his clothes for the next “show” and leave. This is how the state itself could be experienced, in upper case, the state of the death. One can said then, yes, I was there, I experienced it, I was dead.

 

If there is no such possibility to experience states of the deathes in the way I described, it is something hard to cope with, cause one has first to create such places, i. e. states, enter them, experience them, die. But, this is alreday something for the Buddhas to cope with, not for me.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi delek dear Rinpoche,

 

 

Well, of course there are deathes which have deeper consequences, for they separate us radically from a previous state of existence.

Would this mean a death like death, the way we know it...when for example the person who died has gone...?

 

What we do call "death" is the changing moment between two types of clothes.

And would this mean any kind of change in this sense, from the death as above to this so called small death as going of to the dreamland and coming back. What would the coming back be then?

 

Why is it sometimes said that in a way also every single outbreath can be seen as a kind of death..... There is no changing clothes here... ?

 

Thank you.

All the very best,

Pamo

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Tashi delek,

To cope with death, one have to locate it (death as a state of the mind) outside oneself mental continuum, somewhere one can visit, but which one can also leave.

 

8O How can any experience be located outside one's mental continuum?

 

One can said then, yes, I was there, I experienced it, I was dead.

 

When you've been dreaming, can't you say: "yes, I was there, I experienced it, I was doing this or that"; no?

 

cause one has first to create such places, i. e. states, enter them, experience them, die.

 

Your mind is creating your dreams when you sleep, on the basis of your accumulated karmic imprint. In the same way, you do experience all phenomena it seems you "meet", but which are created by your mind.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Tashi delek,

Would this mean a death like death, the way we know it...when for example the person who died has gone...?

 

When the life force - which kept you in contact with this body during your whole life - come to an end, there are several dissolutions, among which the gross levels of one's consciousness.

We might be able to compare this grosser level of consciousness with the "ego" (conceptual structure built along with this existence). When you fall asleep, you will take a dream body, but you remain connected with this physical one; the life force is in it. While, when you die, the tie with this existence disolves and you lose the 'ego' connected with this life, before to enter the bardo.

 

Why is it sometimes said that in a way also every single outbreath can be seen as a kind of death..... There is no changing clothes here... ?

 

Says who?

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Tashi Delek.

 

Now, as I understand, it is that there is a mental continuum of each individuum, which is beginningless and which is interweaved by several features. These features are also beginningless, yet not all of them continue forever. Some of them can end, as example the state of confusion about how the things exist. And being in the state of mind, thinking that things exist as either “alive” or “dead”, it is the state of confusion. When such state of mind ends, there is no more “state of being dead” to be found and could be experienced inside one`s mental continuum. Because the mental continuum is being purified of such states and mistaken concepts. And dreams, alike the death, as I understand are “located” inside one`s mental continuum, also as long as one get rid of them. And such states, which were being dismissed, go somewhere, their`s energy go somewhere out of the mental continuum of an individuum. It cannot just vanish into nothing. In order to die, one can visit such states, places, outside one`s mental continuum. If the energy of such confused states would be simply just transformed, one cannot even die, then. Because one would has no chance to experience the death.

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Hello !!

 

I'll may be repetitiv, but I'm reading the Tibetan Book of living and diying by Sogyal Rinpoche and he talks about the different Bardos during the life and death ..(and many more subjects, It's ok it's not a teaching about Bardos but it gives a good point of view about what it represents, means and so on .. I couldn't give you any more explanations because I'm not even mature for that !

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Tashi Delek,

 

When the life force - which kept you in contact with this body during your whole life - come to an end, there are several dissolutions, among which the gross levels of one's consciousness.

 

This life force you are mentioning, venerable Lama Shenphen, it is no other than karma, right?

 

Why is it sometimes said that in a way also every single outbreath can be seen as a kind of death..... There is no changing clothes here... ?

Says who?

 

I believe this came from a critic of the Middle Way explained by Nagarjuna. This person was saying that because the mental stream of a sentient being was continuously undergoing a process of change, wasn't fixed (as opposed to eternalism), there was for example no reason to retaliate at a person who had hit us, even right after, because this person wasn't really the one who had it us anymore! This person had in a way "died", only to be replaced by a new one, etc. A Critic or an acknowledger, I am not so sure anymore, in fact :roll:

 

Best regards

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Tashi Delek.

 

Why is it sometimes said that in a way also every single outbreath can be seen as a kind of death..... There is no changing clothes here... ?

 

Oh, I understand this assumption in the way, that every sentient being has a certain number of breathes to breathe in single physical life. And each breathe done, makes one closer to the end of that certain number, which when being fulfilled means the end of the physical life. It is like dying step by step.

 

This person was saying that because the mental stream of a sentient being was continuously undergoing a process of change, wasn't fixed (as opposed to eternalism), there was for example no reason to retaliate at a person who had hit us, even right after, because this person wasn't really the one who had it us anymore! This person had in a way "died", only to be replaced by a new one, etc.

 

About the sameness one should differentiate the numerical sameness and qualitative sameness. If one has got two pencils, which are the same by the shape, colour, in the one word by the quality, yet it is not about the one and the same pencil by numerical sameness, althought we usually say that those pencils are the same. There are two pencils. And, if the one and the same person changes, doesn`t mean that from one become two or more persons. It is still the same person, only the characteristics have been changed. The person is not qualitatively the same, yet numerically it is the same!

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi delek,

This life force you are mentioning, venerable Lama Shenphen, it is no other than karma, right?

 

No, it's a specific energy which sustains life of this physical body (which lenght and strengh are of course results of karma).

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

And such states, which were being dismissed, go somewhere, their`s energy go somewhere out of the mental continuum of an individuum. It cannot just vanish into nothing.

 

I can't see the point why should something appear somewhere else in order to be experienced. Indeed we are used to think dualistically, in terms of subject observing object, but we also know, this is not the limit of our mind.

 

In order to die, one can visit such states, places, outside one`s mental continuum. If the energy of such confused states would be simply just transformed, one cannot even die, then. Because one would has no chance to experience the death.

 

I would say the opposite: we can experience only what we have created karma for; karmic imprints lay in the subtle levels of our mindstream; so what we experience is the ever-changing landscape of our mind.

 

Usually our view is very narrow. We waste our time on trifles, jumping randomly from one to another, not seeing them in a broader perspective (at least from a perspective of death if not liberation from countless lives and deaths in samsara). So we are changing endlessly, without being really aware of it. Every conscious or unconscious thought contributes to a continuity of generating, experiencing and exhausting karmic seeds. Every tiny bit of change is like a little death and rebirth.

 

From another point of view such narrow perspective is not a real transformation, not a real shift to another level. One of the signposts towards the broader perspective is exactly this gap between different states of inertia, this little death, the moment of transformation. Of course it takes a lot of practice, perseverance and joyous effort to pacify our mind enough to follow its transformations, to hold the rein and direct it in the course that our Guru reveals to us. As I understood, from this point of view death does not exist.

 

All the best,

chödrön

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This life force you are mentioning, venerable Lama Shenphen, it is no other than karma, right?

 

No, it's a specific energy which sustains life of this physical body (which lenght and strengh are of course results of karma).

 

Please, venerable Lama Shenphen, could you be more specific concerning this energy. It just so happens that these last few days I was wondering where life was coming from, what was life, what made it possible, etc.

 

So if we decompose life into its constituents, we have:

 

A physical body, which length and strenght are determined by karma

A mind

Karma

Life energy?

 

All the best,

Frederic

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Tashi Delek, Ani Chödrön.

 

I can't see the point why should something appear somewhere else in order to be experienced.

 

On the teachings about the death and its process, a lot was told about the 4 elements (earth, water, fire and air), but I missed some words about the 5. th element, about the space, with which is even hardest to deal with. Usually it is hard to bare the empty spaces, for me. When somebody dies, I cannot bare the emptiness inside of me, which is the result that somebody has gone. That`s why the grave or some other concrete space where I can imagine the deceased, is of great help for me. It is like to put the inner emptiness somewhere out and fulfilled it. That`s why my question "where is death". As all of you already noticed, I would like to put the death somewhere "out", in order to feel safe inside of my consciousness and visit the space where the death is just occasionally and then after return in my safe space. But, the things are not going this way, I guess.... :wink:

 

Best regards,

 

Simona

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Tashi delek,

Please, venerable Lama Shenphen, could you be more specific concerning this energy. It just so happens that these last few days I was wondering where life was coming from, what was life, what made it possible, etc.

 

We are composed of 72000 energy chanels, within which flow various type of energies.

The very subtile life-bearing wind dwells inside the heart place, where the very subtile mind is. At the end of life, due to karma, energies withdraw into the heart place, and at the end the subtile consciousness leave the body.

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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Taši delek,

On the teachings about the death and its process, a lot was told about the 4 elements (earth, water, fire and air), but I missed some words about the 5. th element

 

The fith element is the mind (ether).

 

All the best, Gelong T. Shenphen

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We are composed of 72000 energy chanels, within which flow various type of energies.

The very subtile life-bearing wind dwells inside the heart place, where the very subtile mind is. At the end of life, due to karma, energies withdraw into the heart place, and at the end the subtile consciousness leave the body.

 

Tashi Delek and Thank you for these precisions dear Rinpoche.

Another question yet coming to my mind is, and please bear with me, what happens if the energies located in the head region do not have enough "time" to withdraw into the heart place? (I'll let you imagine why...). Are there thus other ways that the subtile consciousness leaves the body? Thus creating a "different" experience of death? Or does this experience remain the same for all sentient beings, no matter how it comes upon them?

 

Warm regards,

Frederic

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Taši Delek, Lama Shenphen Rinpoche,

 

The fith element is the mind (ether).

 

Thank You for the answer a lot. {|:)

 

The mind as a space, then. Where ever in the width or the length the mind goes, it can not get out of itself, yet the borderline is moved further...

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Another question yet coming to my mind is, and please bear with me, what happens if the energies located in the head region do not have enough "time" to withdraw into the heart place? (I'll let you imagine why...). Are there thus other ways that the subtile consciousness leaves the body? Thus creating a "different" experience of death? Or does this experience remain the same for all sentient beings, no matter how it comes upon them

 

Tashi Delek Frederic,

 

There is complete death when the essential drops - the white one from the wheel of the head and the red one fron below the navel- meet at the heart chakra, enclosing the consciousness.

There is a short moment of losing consciousness. As soon as the central channel has dissolved, the consciousness leaves the body or by the place of the heart wheel, or from the head or the feet or some other ones, depending if the corpse has been touched in some place and depending of the karma of the person.

It is said that the place where the continuum of the mind leaves implies next rebirth.

Experiences of death are different, because karmas are different. :o

 

Best Regards

 

Ani Cheunyi :)

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Tashi Delek.

 

What is happening with the five omnipresent mental factors during the death process?

 

To summarize: mind + states of mind (i. e. mental factors) = consciousness

 

It makes me think that the five omnipresent mental factors (intention, contact, feeling, discrimination, attention) disappear in the moment, when the fourth element (the air) dissolves into space (about which we already recognized that it is mind). For this moment I understand it was said, that is very important, cause all the will or intention disappear. The intention is one of the five omnipresent mental factors, in fact, it is the base for the other four factors, cause intention directs mind and then after a contact is established, feelings arises, discrimination sorts different features and attention focuses the mind. It makes me think even more that omnipresent factors disappear, cause the next moments in the death process would be experienced by the consciousness, which does not enable any feelings of happiness, joy, sadness or fear.

 

As it is said in The precious garland:

“When consciousness remains as an orphan, with no support,

and the vision of the fearful lord of death in the other dimension arises,

and the delusory visions of sound, light and rays arise,

bless me that I may liberate in the intermediate state

by realizing these as self-arising self-energy.”

 

Should be understood that from the moment, when air dissolves into mind, follows the moment in which the omnipresent mental factors dissolves into mind itself? Do they really disappear, cause how could then one experiences the fear being in front of the mind itself? Mind is directed to itself, feeling of fear arises,...so the omnipresent mental factors are still working.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek.

 

Omnipresent factors are called omnipresent because they never cease, they are present also in the mind of a Buddha. But the other mental factors constituting our self do disappear during the death process.

 

If we are used to equalise reality with gross consciousness, with the narrow views and polluted perception, it is not very likely that we will be able to hold on when they dissolve and only subtle consciousness remains, it is more plausible that we will feel uncomfortable and disorientated in such states. But if our perception becomes pure enough by then, we will be able to find good ground for meditation in that state. In either case, the omnipresent factors will be there, in its pure form shaping our meditation or in its deluded form shaping our escape from the Clear Light into another bardo and another life of suffering.

 

The intention is one of the five omnipresent mental factors, in fact, it is the base for the other four factors

 

As I remember no omnipresent factor is more primal or more basic then the others. You can focus on any of them as the basis for the others and this way come to the fact that they are interwoven. For complete awareness you need all of them functioning perfectly.

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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Dear all,

 

I have a somewhat different question that is only indirectly linked to the issue of death. Fro dying, it is said, that there is a feeling of anguish, fear, anxiety on the various levels of pollution in mind. The last type of anguish is the fear of non-duality which is manifested just upon - if I understood well enough - entering the state of primary clear state of (a non-dual) mind (i believe it is called dharmadhadu). In other words, this kind of fear is an expression of one of the last attachments on the way to buddhahood. (or have I got it wrongly?).

 

Now, my question is about fears and anxieties that can be experienced in everyday life. It is not just of any fear, but, let us say - about a time period of fear that is connected to the "end" of some period of one's life. Can it be explained by a "little death" and entering in an interstate of 2nd bardo? I have seen it, for example, in people that have decided to change dramatically their life style (not to smoke any more because smoking was an escape from certain problems and depressive states). But also I myself have lately - for other reasons, not for smoking - had such a period.

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Tashi Delek, namesake.

 

Now, my question is about fears and anxieties that can be experienced in everyday life. It is not just of any fear, but, let us say - about a time period of fear that is connected to the "end" of some period of one's life. Can it be explained by a "little death" and entering in an interstate of 2nd bardo? I have seen it, for example, in people that have decided to change dramatically their life style (not to smoke any more because smoking was an escape from certain problems and depressive states). But also I myself have lately -for other reasons, not for smoking - had such a period.

 

I imagine mind as map of the landscape. There are many beaten tracks, on which we are walking on and on, because we know them. To make a step into unknown land, it could be fearful, cause we don`t know where those tracks will lead us and what will we eventually find there. Might we think we can get lost, too. Yet, by making steps into unknown land we create a new pattern, broken the conditioning. I find important that the end of the previous track is properly acknowledged with much of the awareness as possible. In this way I don`t think that changes in someone`s life style are alike “little deaths”, though it is a kind of a leave-taking. The real death is, but please from my point of view, only when the consciousness get rid of the body, phsyical or bardo or dream body.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek

 

Can it be explained by a "little death" and entering in an interstate of 2nd bardo?

 

The real death is, but please from my point of view, only when the consciousness get rid of the body, phsyical or bardo or dream body.

 

Indeed the term ‘bardo’, usually translated as an ‘intermediary state’, etymologically means just an interval between two phenomena: ‘bar’ means interval and ‘do’ means two. It means a space, a gap between two stable states and carries a potential to liberate our mind from the limitations that we cling to. Death is just the sharpest cut between two realities.

 

The number of bardos could be infinite, but it would not be very practical, so the number of bardos settled at six. There are some variations, but usually they are listed this way:

 

1. Bardo between birth and death (Che.shi bar.do),

2. Bardo of dreams (Mi.lam bar.do),

3. Bardo of meditation stabilisation (Sam.ten bar.do),

4. Bardo of dying (Chi.khai bar.do),

5. Bardo of Clear Light or Bardo of Dharmata (Chö.nyi bar.do) and

6. Bardo of becoming (Si.pa bar.do) – which is a usual term of bardo as an interval between death and birth.

 

Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche describes bardo as "awareness within a moment" 8O – without grasping, projections or aversions – which can lead us to the recognition of the fundamental nature of our mind. :-v

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek.

 

Omnipresent factors are called omnipresent because they never cease, they are present also in the mind of a Buddha. But the other mental factors constituting our self do disappear during the death process.

 

How do the omnipresent factors function when a person is in a state of unconsciousness? I had been twice in such state (during the surgical operation) and I can tell you that I didn`t perceive then anything at all. It was not like in the state of dreaming, where a lot of things usually are happening and different feelings are experienced. I hardly even say that it was "nothing", cause it wasn`t even "nothing"!

 

Best regards,

Simona

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