Jump to content
Dharmaling Forums
Sign in to follow this  
frederic

Paying for Dharma?

Recommended Posts

Good evening everybody!

 

There is something I've been meaning to mention, it is regarding the Dharma center I have been practicing at ever since I got involved with Dharma in a more "intensive" manner. It is from Kagyupa lineage, it was implanted 20 years ago by the venerable Kalou Rinpotche.

 

Basically, what "bothers" me a bit, is that teachings and practices are not free... For example, the cost of a 2 days teaching on "Mental quietness", or 2 days instructions on Sangye Menla, etc. will be 32€. Teachings begin at 10 am until 12h30 am and resume from 15pm to 17pm. That's 16 euros per days of teaching, which is not really what you could consider cheap.

 

I have always complied of course ever since I got involved, and in fact because I have become the "official" translator of the Lama who, although he speaks a little French, prefers to teach and instruct in English, I pretty much have been dispensed from paying any fees...

 

Yet, I wanted to read your opinion on this particular way of charging members for Dharma teachings and instructions. There is no doubt of course that each and every member must help as he or she can, by donating what he or she can. But I don't know, it always sort of "feels strange" to me when I see members in line, pulling their checks out before they can walk into the temple...

 

What do you think?

 

Best regards,

Frederic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek,

 

Dharmaling has a strong position not to charge anyone for the Teachings, everything is based on voluntary donations, the entrance is free for everybody, nobody excluded. We may not even let other groups advertise their program on this forum if they have a fixed price. BuddhaDharma should never be for sale!

 

When we have a retreat or a seminar, the costs are for the lodging and food only. Everything else is up to participants' awareness and generosity.

 

With best wishes,

Khyenrab

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When we have a retreat or a seminar, the costs are for the lodging and food only.

Plus some administration costs... but the prices are very low.

 

In July 2005 we had a 5 day seminar in the Alpine part of Slovenia and the cost was 25.000 SIT = 104 Euros. With Lama Shenphen Rinpoche giving Teachings and advice every day!

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it should be made clear that the cost for the seminar in July that Khyenrab mentioned was for the full board and accommodation of each participant in a small hotel in the mountains, including three meals a day, bedrooms and bathrooms, for five days.

 

It did not cover Rinpoche's teachings, as Rinpoche insists that these should be free and available for everybody.

 

Khyenrab, I know you already wrote that, but I just thought that maybe it should be made a little bit clearer. ;-F

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek, Frederic.

 

Basically, what "bothers" me a bit, is that teachings and practices are not free... What do you think?

 

Have you ever been discussed about this to your Lama? As it is your inner voice, which tells you this, it could bother your practice and your faith in Lama, after all.

 

Best regards,

Simona

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek Simona,

 

As I said, I have always complied and although it felt peculiar, almost "unatural", I figured that after all, Lama also had to "make a living" out of his activity, especially as it is dedicated to the good of all beings... I have faith in him, after all he was one of the closest disciples of venerable Kalou Rinpotche, who considered him more like a son than anything else. Lama still has very strong devotion for Kalou Rinpotche, and I feel there is no way that he could turn his former master's legacy into a "profitable" operation. Maybe I should speak more about this with the Sangha first, before directly "confronting" the Lama. Maybe they'll tell me that it was free at one point, and that attending members were not being generous "enough" (we all agree that westerners have a tendency to being very attached to and turned towards material things...), thus endangering the very possibility of the congregation... Anyways, thank you for your concern.

 

Best regards,

Frederic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek, Frederic.

 

Lama also had to "make a living" out of his activity, especially as it is dedicated to the good of all beings...

 

Yes, that`s for sure. But, somehow by charging fixed prices some beings are indirectly excluded from attempting the teachings. Some people do not have enough money.

 

Maybe they'll tell me that it was free at one point, and that attending members were not being generous "enough" (we all agree that westerners have a tendency to being very attached to and turned towards material things...), thus endangering the very possibility of the congregation...

 

From my point of view people do like to waste their money and they would waste it even more if they would have it more. Sometimes for quite :loco: material and "spiritual" things. On every corner there is a pub and a flood of shoping centres. Not to list all those reiki masters, astrologers, who charge their kindness at minimum 50 € for one session.

 

Anyways, thank you for your concern.

 

You are welcome.

 

Best regards,

Simona

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lama also had to "make a living" out of his activity, especially as it is dedicated to the good of all beings...

 

Yes, that`s for sure. But, somehow by charging fixed prices some beings are indirectly excluded from attempting the teachings. Some people do not have enough money.

 

That is correct. Some members just can't afford to go to all teachings, sometimes they will only come for one practice out of 4, sometimes none. I find this quite unacceptable...

 

Maybe they'll tell me that it was free at one point, and that attending members were not being generous "enough" (we all agree that westerners have a tendency to being very attached to and turned towards material things...), thus endangering the very possibility of the congregation...

 

From my point of view people do like to waste their money and they would waste it even more if they would have it more. Sometimes for quite :loco: material and "spiritual" things. On every corner there is a pub and a flood of shopping centres. Not to list all those reiki masters, astrologers, who charge their kindness at minimum 50 € for one session.

 

Indeed, wherever we look, we see ignorance. Most human beings are deeply addicted to Samsara :// Evidently not everybody has the chance to encounter the wisdom of Dharma in one's lifetime, or if so, find some sort of interest in it and put it in practice for the best interest of us all... The world would be such a better place :)

 

Kind regards,

Frederic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear all,

 

I decided to join this topic because of a somewhat unpleasant feeling that I had before the last Friday teaching. Just before the entrance to the teachings there was, as usually, a Dharmaling member, giving free "tickets" to anyone that was about to enter. What surprised me 8O this time, was that on the free ticket there was a kind suggestion that one should donate the sum of 1 cinema ticket before/after the teaching. Yes, the donation was optional, but the psychological effect of the sum (900 sit) indicated below was almost as if one is requested to pay forthe teaching. What I didn't like further, was that some people - the ones that donate on a regular monthly basis - recieved a special "membership" card instead of the ticket. I felt that this was as a some kind of distinction between two groups (donors, not-donors) and, in a way, a very subtle psychological pressure that was about to produce the feeling of bad conscience in the non-donors. :oops:

 

I really didn't like this visible and public discrimination among the donors and non-donors. It could be also against the principle of equanimity.

My unpleasant feelings have arisen also from the fact that, if I donate, I want it to be secret; yes, I am enthousiastic about it, I am happy about it, but I do not want the others to know that. So, I don't intend to wear this "membership" card.

 

After reading Frederic's posts, I saw, that the things could have been worse than that. I saw that what happened this Friday, was only "the soft" way. But let us try to see the problem from as many angles as possible.

 

1. Because of the "equanimity" principle, Dharma should be absolutely free. :D

2. Anyway: the teachers and the sanga that have the boddishatva vows must pay for thier appartment, their food, oil, they have costs with car, food, medicine, clothes.... Although their life is ascetic, they have certain expenses. So, it is fair and right that their disciples, to whom they help, support them materially. This was so in every civilization that one can think of.

3. Not every one that wants to attend the teachings has the money to give away (e.i: the students, the sick, the unemployed, the old... or even those that have very low salaries or pay very expensive rents for their appartment). Yet, there are people that live reasonably well, so this is the group that can donate and provide for the material means of the Sanga.

 

I have the feeling that what happened at the last teaching was an admonition to all those that would be able to donate, but do not donate or donate to little. Yes, donating is giving something away and perhaps I wouldn't be able to buy this or that thing. But - what is the goal here? It is practising generosity, it is providing material means for the life of monks and nuns - and last, but not least - it is helping other sentient beings. I think that this third point is very important and that many persons do not donate because they don't understand it. I'l try to explain it.

 

In donating, there is also the wish: as I had enough of positive karma that I came in contact with Dharma, by donating I can contribute (modestly) that also other people (friends, enemies, the persons I don't know) get into contact with it. As Dharma helped to me, I want that it helps also to all those persons. Donation is, therefore, also the gift to all the others. And what a wonderful gift - for it makes everybody richer...

 

All the best,

kuenzang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek,

 

In donating, there is also the wish: as I had enough of positive karma that I came in contact with Dharma, by donating I can contribute (modestly) that also other people (friends, enemies, the persons I don't know) get into contact with it. As Dharma helped to me, I want that it helps also to all those persons. Donation is, therefore, also the gift to all the others. And what a wonderful gift - for it makes everybody richer...

 

This is actually how I interpreted it once. I thought about the fact that I was paying, and then I thought, well, I am just paying so that others later on will be able to get the same teachings, for cheaper or no money at all! So I am contributing to "paving the way" for them! And of course this thought totally justified the fact that I was paying, it felt good to pay, seeing it that way! It didn't even feel like paying anymore, it felt more like donating to future generations :D But, Dharma must be free to begin with. And, as you said, it is only natural that Lay persons provide venerable monks and nuns with proper material support, one does not go without the other, it is give and take, the absolute law of interdependance... and so, that way, may we all realize the state of non-suffering as soon as possible and may it be of benefit to innumerable sentient beings! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek,

What surprised me 8O this time, was that on the free ticket there was a kind suggestion that one should donate the sum of 1 cinema ticket before/after the teaching. Yes, the donation was optional, but the psychological effect of the sum (900 sit) indicated below was almost as if one is requested to pay forthe teaching. What I didn't like further, was that some people - the ones that donate on a regular monthly basis - recieved a special "membership" card instead of the ticket. I felt that this was as a some kind of distinction between two groups (donors, not-donors) and, in a way, a very subtle psychological pressure that was about to produce the feeling of bad conscience in the non-donors. :oops: ... I have the feeling that what happened at the last teaching was an admonition to all those that would be able to donate, but do not donate or donate to little.

[align=justify]As I understand it (with my limited mind :lol: ), a suggestion to donate the sum of 1 cinema ticket, was there to kindly remind the listeners of the value of having priceless Dharma in Slovenia (and so close to them!) If You compare neighbouring states, You can see that this is a rare privilege. As far as I know donation was never forced upon anyone, also it is probably clear (and it was explicitly stated before) that people who cannot afford to donate are under no pressure whatsoever.

 

Yet, I personally believe that the fact that Dharma is for free should in no way reduce the moral liability of listeners to support it. And sometimes we forget about it (I mean us who can afford it). I guess everyone knows, how much basic life expenses amount to in Slovenia and can compare it with the number of regular listeners and with the value of the cinema ticket, which seems as a really modest comparison to me. Regular donation was introduced (I believe) on the suggestion of the donators. We donate as and when we can, not seeing the wider picture (i.e. if others are e.g. also unable to donate at that very time). So it can accidentally happen that at one point donations are not very rich, yet the basic needs remain the same. Regular donation system provides some security also for Sangha to plan expenses, especially in the time when there are no weekly teachings, like in the summer.

 

All this is of course my personal view, not necessarily shared by Dharmaling as a religious community.

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman[/align]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Farman,

 

thank you for this gentle and kind view of "donations". So - what was then this latent feeling of unpleasantness / unsatisfaction in me? I really cannot understand it. And, to tell the truth, I was a little bit sad also that the things must be settled in this - although - soft way.

 

All the very best,

kuenzang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek, Kunzang.

 

So - what was then this latent feeling of unpleasantness / unsatisfaction in me? I really cannot understand it. And, to tell the truth, I was a little bit sad also that the things must be settled in this - although - soft way.

 

Geshe Tashi Tsering; THE BUDDHA`S MEDICINE FOR THE MIND

 

"A person who genuinely enjoys giving will be overjoyed when another asks them for something, like money. This person would happily give it, thinking, "Great, another opportunity to practise generosity. Here my friend, take this." A penny-pinching person on the other hand, is troubled by such a request. Unable to give easily, he or she might think, "Why do you have to ask me? I wish you hadn`t asked me. I wish you`d get lost." The very same request brings one person joy and another person turmoil. A person who enjoys putting virtues into pracice will delight at the opportunity to do so. Others will be troubled by such circumstances. "

 

I guess, dear Kunzang, there is absolutely no reason for feelings of unpleasantness / unsatisfaction. Ven. Lama Shenphen Rinpoche take care for all the people. Teachings are free and everyone alone is about to figure it out if, how much is able/want and in which way to donate.

 

Best regards,

Simona

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that we can often feel complacent and take the teachings for granted. We get used to receiving and it does not cross our mind to give anything back. By this we generate negative karma.

 

Teachings should be treated with outmost respect. One form of showing respect is also generosity, particularly since we are often quite willing to pay for a cinema ticket in order to waste our time with something completely trivial that would in no way benefit other sentient beings, whereas we take teachings for granted and we even feel upset when we are reminded about it.

 

We blame the teacher or organisers of greediness even if the sum suggested is very low, and we don't think even for a second that maybe it is also our karma and our attitude that are at stake here, not only the covering of expenses of the sangha/organisation of the event.

 

Concerning the membership cards, I understand that it can upset some people and it would be worth thinking about it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dharmaling continues to provide teachings and practice for free.

If you come to the questions/answers, to the weekly practices, to the Lama Chöpa, or to the Mahayana precepts, there is absolutelly nothing asked. Not even any ticket. And no one is obliged to pay for the entry to the teachings.

The ticketting system was introduced at first to know how many people were joining the teachings. It allowed us to see that the ratio between participants and donation was incredibly low (about 1€/person).

 

As mentionned in a message above, people have the negative habits to take everything as granted. They do not understand all the cost implied behind for having teachings so regularly since three years at their door!

Result, at the end of the month, we wonder if we will pay all the bills. Is this the way to thanks the Lama and the Sangha for all the help they provide?

 

When Rinpoche is invited in Austria, it is under the invitation of a Center, who charge 10€. Not as suggested donation. And it seems people find this completely normal.

When it is Dharmaling which organises, Rinpoche doesn't want a fix price, thus the free entrance.

The "sugegsted donation" is only the price of a cinema ticket. It remains a "suggested donation", meaning people who 'cannot' do not 'have to'. How much more things do we buy, much more costly and of no real importance, just to feed our pleasure or greed?!

Here, it is Dharma. The key to the way out of Samsara. For the same suggested cost of a cinema ticket.

 

Yes, it is sad to have to remind the people in such way. But it is because they do not seems to be able to remind themselves.

 

As to the membership card, some people gave last year half million Slovene Tolars to support Dharmaling's activities and the presence of Shenphen Rinpoche. DOn't you think it is normal they have a special card enabeling them to do not feel they have also to give something at the entrance?

This is not against equanimity. Equanimity is a mental attitude, and within Dharmaling it is respected. But we wish also to thank people who a greatly helping the Dharma to develop in Slovenia and around. Though, no one of the regular donators has ever asked for any card...

 

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi delek,

 

sure, Kunzang's post migth at first seem a little picky, but I think it deserves some attention, since Kunzang was not the only person I spoke to who felt unpleasant with the situation. Personally, I also felt unpleasant. Actually, mimicring the form of the admission fee, took quite some effort for me not to think of it as a cumpolsury entrance fee, despite the relatively clear message in the news-mail. And when a friend of mine asked me whether from now on “the entrance fee will be paid permanently”, I had quite some troubles explaining him that it is still a donation – because due to this unpleasant feeling I wasn not personally as deeply convinced of it as I should be.

 

As for the “member-cards”; I didn't have any extra-feelings about them. But I again agree with Kunzang in seeing in them a danger of negative stratification leading to an us & them perspective – which is, in my opinion, not what Dharma should be all about. Now, this question ceases to be only the matter of money, actually, since it could become a matter of inclusiveness/exclusiveness, and, of giving or not giving a positive sign that we are (still) an equal community. I might be the more so sensitive about these questions, since a.) I remember how difficult it was for me at the start to gain this feeling, and b.) my experience in social work has shown me how important it is to give such positive signs to people who feel (seemingly) excluded/underprivileged. I wouldn't like to see, one day, that there are such people in our community. And – regardless of the sum donated or deeds “sacrificed” - I'm firmly convinced that when I am (we are) donating or helping people, I'm (we are) not doing this for a card, or for a promotion – or even for a thank you. At least this was always my experience.

 

I hope it is clear that I also think that donations should be “self-evident”, a well as that a cinema-ticket-amount is a reasonable amount in most cases. But I cannot help still having some doubts about the “form” (and its possible implications) of this unquestionably positive “content”.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I understand all these feelings, I think that everybody who can should contribute in order to be able to continue to attend teachings, because if the costs can't be covered, it might happen that one day there will be no teachings anymore...

 

Has anyone considered that possibility?

 

Let's take a step away from "my feelings" and see the big picture.

 

PS:

As far as membership cards are concerned, I haven't asked for it (none of us have) and I defintely do not contribute to have it (and I'm convinced that others do not either), nor do I intend to boast with it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek dear all!

 

But I cannot help still having some doubts about the “form” (and its possible implications) of this unquestionably positive “content

 

Just a glimpse, why we are/our ego so sensitive to appearance/form. Why we/our ego want to bring under control something what supposed to be unquestionably positive, what we in general agree with. But, there are still some unpleasant feelings …It is the question whom we want to pleased? To our “closest neighbour”, our ego or we want to benefit others.

In this case it might help some purification practice- prostrations in front of 35 Dhyani Buddhas; we can find out that Vairochana’s family helps to purify attachments to the form/appearance (http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/5_dhyani_buddhas.html).

So, why form??? :?:

With best wishes,

tatjana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tashi Delek,

As for the “member-cards”; I didn't have any extra-feelings about them. But I again agree with Kunzang in seeing in them a danger of negative stratification leading to an us & them perspective – which is, in my opinion, not what Dharma should be all about. Now, this question ceases to be only the matter of money, actually, since it could become a matter of inclusiveness/exclusiveness, and, of giving or not giving a positive sign that we are (still) an equal community.

[align=justify]I think that we should be careful not to mix cause and consequence. We are debating about the inclusiveness/exclusiveness instead of a bit shameful fact that an average donation is 1 euro (i.e. 240 Slovene tolars) per listener, which would e.g. cover less than half an hour of the movie in the cinema. If we all felt hurt about this fact, than there would be no need for extra reminding (which is only the consequence and not the cause). Of course, there are people, who cannot afford more, but I honestly doubt that this is the main reason for such low ratio. Maybe we are just spoiled, not even thinking about expenses etc.

 

But I agree, the feeling of inclusiveness/exclusiveness could be a problem. Yet, I am quite sure than none of the regular donators share or spread it. We have to be aware of the fact that some of the donators, who contribute a lot, might not have any higher incomes than the others. And some, who contribute less, can hardly afford it, but they still scrape the bottom of the barrel. I am a regular donator, but not among those contributing a lot, yet as you can see I feel free to lecture to others :lol:.

 

But seriously: 240 Slovene tolars multplied with 70 (average number of vistiors) multiplied with 4 (monthly number of Friday's teachings) amounts to ccm 67.000 of Slovene tolars (280 euros), this is surely not enough to cover the most basic monthly needs of Sangha. Just think how much the rental of a house is in Slovenia. So I guess, it is also on us - the others to take some of the burden off of those few individuals, who have been covering the lion's share of the expenses for having Dharma in Slovenia.

 

One legal remark: if parents separate, the court will demand an alimony regardless of the fact that the other parent (usually the father :roll:) doesn't have any income - parents are obliged to maintain their children even at the cost of their own survival. Keeping that in mind, we should all strive to constantly provide a higher than 1 euro/listener ratio.

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman[/align]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more remark about inclusiveness/exclusiveness. I'm fed up to hear about it. Dharmaling is the only group so far where from the very beginning I could talk to anybody without being given the cold shoulder because I was new. Many might think that I'm part of the non-existent "elite" becase they see me translating the teachings. Well, let me tell you, I have as much access to Rinpoche and the Sangha as anybody else. I don't sit around drinking tea and gossiping with them. I see them at events/teachings and if I make a special appointment by phone.

 

Some of us have been given work so that Dharmaling can function for the benefit of others and not to make us feel special. I can say for myself that what I do in Dharmaling does not make me feel special in any way, but it does make me nervous every time... If anybody would like to join in the effort, he/she is welcome.

 

Please, stop creating problems where there are none. Speaking about exclusiveness/inclusiveness creates an impression that something like that exists when in fact it does not!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dechen wrote :

If anybody would like to join in the effort, he/she is welcome.

 

Hi Dechen .. what do you mean in joining in the effort ?

 

I approve you when you say that people create the impression of problems where in fact there is none !

Most of us, as human being couldn't live without the impression to have problems, because they continue to see the life as a duality with the good and evil .. it's a bit sado-masochist , isn't it ? lol I don't know where does it come from ... it's a complex threat ! and people don't make any effort to calm them down ! the human mind could be sometimes very warped ! lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tashi Delek,

... instead of a bit shameful fact that an average donation is 1 euro (i.e. 240 Slovene tolars) per listener... Maybe we are just spoiled, not even thinking about expenses etc.

 

I totally agree that it is "quite a shameful fact"... And, yes, I also think that we are spoiled.

 

But I agree, the feeling of inclusiveness/exclusiveness could be a problem. Yet, I am quite sure than none of the regular donators share or spread it.

 

I hope so. I think this is exactly what I was trying to say - that it is a possible problem, and by being aware of this possibility, we might have more chance to avoid it. Actually I was aiming not so much at those/us who have been following Buddhism for some years now, but at the possible newcomers. This was also the concern expressed by the friend from the upper story, who has been trying a lot to “propagate” (sorry for this word) Buddhism among his friends. Of course, it could be said that in this case newcomers aren't “mature” enough to encounter Buddhism, but frankly speaking, neither was I five years ago. :oops:

 

@ Dechen – I will not spam this topic with the exlusiveness/inclusiveness argument.I would just say that I was taught by my boss (a therapist) that although other people's problems may arise from erraneous perspective, it is wise to take them into consideration if we want to help them.... I think this is valid for the life in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...