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Alan

Buddhist Talibans?!

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[moved by Gigu]

Hi,

If you do search for traditional Buddhism. If you try to practice ethics as a basis of Buddhism teachings. If you follow the Buddha's steps with constancy... Be careful! You might be qualified as "Buddhist Taliban"!!

 

Joke? Well, this is what was writen on the Slovene web site of Shambala, in the comments, by, as it appears, the preseident of the Tibet Support Group of that country (Slovenia)...

Momo the Tiger said:

... We are truly lucky that Buddhist Talibans managed to protect us against such barbaric conduct!

You might notice the ironic tune ;) This is because after publishing their "striptease" advertising, they said that it was a jooooke! 8O We didn't understand anything! Far too serious for their jokes ;)

 

This reaction is against this post on this web site...

 

Reminds me, the Buddhist Talibans are the majority of people trying to follow as purely as possible Buddha-Dharma? Or the hand-ful of those who are criticizing them?

 

Truely, in degenerated time, ethical values are getting lost...

Unglaublich!

 

Alan[list=]

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Joke? Well, this is what was writen on the Slovene web site of Shambala, in the comments, by, as it appears, the preseident of the Tibet Support Group of that country (Slovenia)...

Dear Alan,

 

I am sorry you have no sense of humour, what else can I say?

And as before, you are not even bothering to check for facts, but just making assumptions - the site is NOT slovene site of Shambhala, it is a PERSONAL website. The official site is at www.shambhala.si.

And if you are interested, the striptease went really well, we were waiting for you to show up, but unfortunately you missed it!

 

Isn't all Buddhist practice actually one of stripping, being naked in the world, exposed to everything and everyone without any reservations and holding back? ;-) And teasing our neurosis to the surface?

 

Momo the Tiger was especially daring in his nakedness I have to say! ;-)

 

:CD

 

Alan, why is it so hard for you accept that sense of humour is an essential part of the path? And how is your disparaging and throwing doubt on other lineages part of your practice and helping others in any way? All I see is someone who must be suffering deeply to wish others harm in such a way.

Didn't the president of Shambhala Europe himself answer your questions satisfactorily?

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Also interesting with this whole striptease thing is that you never bothered to check what is going on, but just jumped to conclusions and immediately started to attack and disparage others. Wouldn't it be better to check that you understand correctly?

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Guest momomatjaz

Dear Alan,

 

why do you feel that the reference "Buddhist Taliban" refers to you??? I wonder...

 

Dont worry & be happy!

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Tashi Delek,

Isn't all Buddhist practice actually one of stripping, being naked in the world, exposed to everything and everyone without any reservations and holding back? ;-) And teasing our neurosis to the surface?

Well it should be decided whether the call for striptease was a joke or a part of a Buddhist practice. If it is the former then it was stated really humourlessly, without even the slightest hint in the advertisement that it is meant as a joke. If it is the latter than surely there exist ancient texts by qualified masters praising such practice, right?

 

Alan, why is it so hard for you accept that sense of humour is an essential part of the path?

At least as far as the Taliban comparison goes, it is just a plain insult. The actions of the Talibans have been quite bloody and to compare any of Slovene Buddhists to them shows a lack of taste. Especially, when coming from someone, who recently praised the way the Chinese treat Tibetans?!

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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why do you feel that the reference "Buddhist Taliban" refers to you??? I wonder...

Hi,

Who said I took it for myself? I wonder... I mentioned what is happening in your country :)

But I see that it is really you who wrote this post; I had some doubt, given the gravity of this statement. As the president of the Tibet Support Group, and pretending to be Buddhist, this is a shame to use this word (an insult as refering to the blood spelt, as mentioned above!).

Alan

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And as before, you are not even bothering to check for facts, but just making assumptions - the site is NOT slovene site of Shambhala, it is a PERSONAL website.
Hi,

But the personnal web site of the president of the Shambala society in Slovenia, no? This should give you a sense of responsibility over what you say and write...

 

Isn't all Buddhist practice actually one of stripping, being naked in the world, exposed to everything and everyone without any reservations and holding back?
You serioulsy are mixing words and meaning. This "nakedness" present in the teachings you follow seems to refers clearly to the nakedness of one's ego... not once body. But may be you are putting to much your ego in your body? :CD

 

And teasing our neurosis to the surface?
you can tease your own neurosis, at your own risk. But you can't pretend to tease the neurosis of the others on the name of Buddhism, at the risk of giving a bad name/reputation to Buddhism...

 

Alan, why is it so hard for you accept that sense of humour is an essential part of the path?
I do not. I'm ok with humour... as long as it is well expressed enough to be clearly understood (may be think about putting smillies also in your e-mail next time).

 

All I see is someone who must be suffering deeply to wish others harm in such a way.
Then you od not see well, as I wish no harm to anyone. Using "Buddhist Taliban" isn't a way you see to harm the others in their way to seeks for purity of the Tradition?? Strange...

Bye, Alan

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Why are you laying this on me? not my comment, remember? Again misrepresenting the facts?

Hi,

Isn't it on your personnal web site? If you let it, you might agree with, no?

Alan

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Guest momomatjaz

Dear Alan and draftsman,

 

you should appreciate the context in which the comment was made - the whole post is a kind of parody on the striptease situation. As far as the word "Taliban" is concerned, since Taliban literaly refers to one particular islamic movement, the phrase "Buddhist Taliban" it is a paradox, such a thing can't really exist. Yet, I borrowed the phrase from Christianity parody websites (www.whitehouse.org comes to mind), where Christian Taliban is often used to describe a over-zeleous self-righteous religious practitioner, who imposes his or hers way of thinking on others in a kind of aggressive way - not neccessary through violence.

 

So, I feel it is an interesting concept. As a "seekers of knowladge" (original meaning of the word Talib) we might be often tempted to grasp at our understanding and our idea of what is right and wrong too tightly, and to demand of others to accept our way, without really paying thourough consideration of others viewpoint. It is interesting concept to keep in mind, to check our own minds, to notice when we are starting to behave as a "Talibans" and to do something about it.

 

Again, in no way was this reference meant in connection to particular individuals or groups, but as a general concept. I didn't intend to insult anybody and I apologise if I did.

 

ps. As far as my views on Tibet and China are concerned you two should re-read carefuly the materials that I've published in English and Slovene on my website before you make such strong judgements.

 

With best regards,

Matjaz

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Hi,

the whole post is a kind of parody
Under the excuse of parody or joke, we cannot say everything. Too easy.

 

over-zeleous self-righteous religious practitioner, who imposes his or hers way of thinking on others in a kind of aggressive way - not neccessary through violence.
This means you take the right to judge the others, saying who are the "over-zeleous self-righteous" people "imposing" their views... Isn't it an agressive way to impose your own views? 8O

 

Again, in no way was this reference meant in connection to particular individuals or groups, but as a general concept.
Of course... A "general concept" writen in comment to a specific article... yes, yes...

 

you two should re-read carefuly the materials that I've published in English and Slovene on my website before you make such strong judgements.
You base this remark on the assumption that we didn't read carefully the "material" (more a blog type) on your web site. But we did. And I remain disgusted by your views about how positive is the situation brought through Chinese toward Tibet! You seems to have no real idea of the suffering all the Tibetans went through (torture, genocide, cultural destroying, etc...), and the future implication if one accept the idea that Tibet is now "lost", and definitely part of China! I read you are president of the Tibet Support Group in your country. How can you say/write what you did??

Tschuess, Alan

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Tashi Delek,

 

As far as Buddhist Talibans go, I completely agree with what Alan said. To sum up: the statement was inappropriate, that's all. Claiming that it was not connected with a concrete situation doesn't really seem convincing. But anyhow, I would say that Dharmaling members&followers have a pretty healthy distance towards their spiritual involvement and also quite a good sense of humour. I don't think that the mistake was on their side (i.e. "misunderstanding" of the advertisment for Losar celebration didn't take place due to their "stiffness").

 

you two should re-read carefuly the materials that I've published in English and Slovene on my website before you make such strong judgements.
I read you are president of the Tibet Support Group in your country. How can you say/write what you did??

The discrepancy between calling some "tradition following&authority respecting Buddhists" Talibans and finding nice words for the Chinese occupiers is surely a bit uncanny. And an "easy going" attitude doesn't really take this away.

 

Even if the Tibetan situation was back to normal (which it can't be until some sort of real autonomy is guaranteed and until a big apology - accompanied by vast reparations payments - comes from the Chinese officials), the fact still remains that it might not be appropriate or sensible to praise the Chinese, taking in consideration the destruction they caused. Not to mention the shameful fact that freedom of information on the Chinese internet is still restricted, preventing the people from finding out the truth about the genocide.

 

Best regards,

 

Draftsman

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Dear Robert, dear Matjaž!

 

Thank you for so generously exposing yourselves in such complete nakedness – I guess we can call this some kind of striptease too. Maybe not such a nice sight, but surely informative enough. :twisted:

 

Fact is, you can't force us to see things as you wish us to see them. You can accuse us of being humourless, or Taliban, or whatever, but this won't change a thing. It just indicates bad manners. I personally accept only calm and founded argumentation, which I can follow with logic.

 

I saw the message about the Losar practices too – there was the word striptease, and no indication that this is a joke (I know, I was searching for it). To try to accuse us post festum that we didn't see the joke, is irrelevant. If I come and smack you on the head, and say later it was a joke – will your head be like new then? :lol:

 

To accuse people who have a different opinion as Buddhist Talibans is tasteless, no matter what website you may refer to, and it is a sign of bad manners. It also shows that the remark about striptease maybe wasn't meant as a joke after all.

 

And Matjaž, regarding your remarks about how Tibet is now a part of China and we better get accustomed to this, and how well it is for young Tibetans as they can now travel all through China, and make trade, and how they like it etc. etc. – I saw these too, and was repelled. I guess American Indians liked it too when they got free access to brandy, didn't they? The problem is that as president of the TSG in Slovenia, you seem to be quite short-sighted.

 

My best wishes.

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Tashi Delek!

 

Above I referred to some things Matjaž published on his website. For those who may not have seen these writings, I present two quick quotations:

 

"Regardless of the history, it is obvious fact that Tibet is now part of China and there is no chance that this could change in the next decades or even centu-ries. At the same time this is not something to despair about or to struggle in vain for something that can not be reached but can only cause more problems and suffering. It is much more constructive to accept the situation as it is and try to use its potential for the good of oneself and others."

 

"Monasteries are functioning, schools are being built, free clinics help people, all of it in larger part with the help of Chinese people. There is no way to deny that Tibetan people - especially young ones - appreciate the chance of modern life offered to them by China. They study in Chinese schools, universities, make busi-ness and travel throughout China.

Nowadays it is very simple; you just get on a bus and in few hours or days you are in Chengdu or anywhere else in China having all that civilization has to offer at your disposal. And Tibetan people like it."

 

The complete article can be found at:

http://momo.awakeheart.net/TibetUpClose/20...n-in-hong-kong/

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We would like the debate to do not be "personal" . It is good things do come out, and - hopefully- clear up. But the Dharmaling Forums shouldn't be a place for personal grunge...

 

Thank you :)

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I saw the message about the Losar practices too – there was the word striptease, and no indication that this is a joke (I know, I was searching for it). To try to accuse us post festum that we didn't see the joke, is irrelevant. If I come and smack you on the head, and say later it was a joke – will your head be like new then? :lol:

Dear Wangmo,

 

I really have no wish to argue further about this. The fact of the matter is that of all the people that received that message, only Dharmaling members found it offensive and launched an attack on us (and the whole organization ) immediately without even bothering to check with us what is going on. If something was not clear, it would be easy just to email and check, no? If there were any bad manners, this certainly counts among them.

 

Lots of other people appreciated the joke, and have let us know so as well.

And a few people asked about it and we explained it. No problem, and it introduced some lightness into the whole thing. As I said, I am sorry that this have stirred up so much negativity among you. I do trust that being practitioners and having a good teacher, you will be able to practice with it (if you want to), and I will do so as well for things that are arising in me. That is the best we can do, it seems.

 

I have no wish to convert you to my views, or even to be able to see things from our point of view, as even this has proved fruitless countless times in the past. I just state how things were and seem from our point of view. You are free to do with this as you want.

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and here is the blog entry in question:

Terrible events are afoot in Slovenia and Dharma seems to be in serious jeopardy. This is a call to all true followers of the Buddha's way to stand up and voice their opposition strongly to such blatant degeneration of Buddha's teachings:

Striptease as a buddhist way of overcoming fear? (link to forum)

 

These Slovenian Shambhala Buddhists seems to think that humour or joy is allowed in any form to be part of such a noble spiritual endeavor, as attaining Enlightenment for all sentient beings. This will not be tolerated!

A person righteously took it upon himself to immediately report this horrible event to the President of Shambhala himself reporting that people are shocked in Slovenia and bad name is coming to Buddhism in general because of such actions!

 

The leadership of Shambhala will be taking immediate action, as Shambhala has always been known to never tolerate any sense of humour in their members, especially not regarding such venerated occasions as is the celebration of New Year!

 

They have recognized that there are definitely bad buddhists here and they will come personally and spank us all for such digression!

 

So, there you have it!

Now, if anyone takes this as an official and serious statement, they are surely beyond help.

:CD

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The fact of the matter is that of all the people that received that message, only Dharmaling members found it offensive and launched an attack on us (and the whole organization )

First, it seems you tend to think that all people expressing themselves on these forums are Dharmaling members? This would be a mistaken view, as our forums are open.

Then, it is not because Dharmaling members would be the only one you hear from, that they would be the only ones who have been wondering about the content of your e-mail and your blog entry... This may be just because Dharmaling members are daring to express themselves more than others :D

They might be quite fearless - and some even "warrior" type - and not worry to expose themselves "naked" of ego to the Shambhala world :CD

 

If something was not clear, it would be easy just to email and check, no?

I guess this is what Alan did; as you mentioned he was in contact with Shambhala institution...

 

But talking about verifying information, not so long ago you were spreading information about Rinpoche which appeared to be blatantly wrong and gossip, no? (though we are aware you were not the creator of this gossip you seemed to have maintained it months without to have verified it). So, it's always more easy "to see the straw in the eye of the others instead of the beam in our one"... Or may be we shall see this as a return of karma? Though, we do not rejoice about it at all. But karma is what people do.

 

And a few people asked about it and we explained it. No problem

May be the problem is about all the people who did NOT asked about it, but will keep in mind a wrong picture about what you really meant.

 

I am sorry that this have stirred up so much negativity among you.

I guess this is a way to withdraw any sense of responsibility in the whole matter, refusing to accept that there might have been a mistake from your side, may be? To say that it was all a joke, and we - poor humorless Dharmaling members - did not understand it, is a bit easy. But we are used to this type of easy attitude.

 

I sure hope though that bringing up such subjects, and letting them developing with the hope to bring more clarity, will not be a basis for you to spread more negativities against Dharmaling as a whole... As, Dharmaling, as a whole, wishes you much peace and harmony :)

 

Thank you.

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Guest momomatjaz

Regarding Tibet:

 

It is easy to sit in a comfortable home in Europe and make demands about what should happen to Tibet so that the justice would be done - It is another thing to live there every day of your life as Tibetans within Tibet do. Do you think that because their country is not free they don't have to eat, find something to do, fall in love, have fun or appreciate some things that are now accessable through China? They do all of that. That is how they are able to survive - by adjusting to the current situation and using it for their advantage.

 

You talk about Chinese, but can you make distinction between Chinese army, Chinese government, Chinese people, Chinese from 50 years ago and Chinese from the present? These are at all not the same. For example, did you know that many of the common folks in China love His Holiness the Dalai Lama, even though they never saw him or heard a good news about him? Did you know, that many temples, monks, hospitals in Tibet are financed by money of the private Chinese citizens (not the government)? Did you know that many Chinese people follow Tibetan Buddhism in the same way as you do?

 

Tibet being a part of China is nowadays a fact, like it or not. If you don't believe me, ask some Tibetans from Tibet, Chinese from China or His Holiness.

 

You say that you care for Tibet. So, you should be happy to hear about some good things going on in China and Tibet, right? If on the contrary, you get upset, this is a sign of being too much attached to your own view and not really caring for the benefit of actual people living in that situation.

 

As you know His Holiness wants to asure more autonomy and freedom for Tibet within the framework of China. Last month, His representatives visited Beijing again to hold talks with the Chinese government. From the Buddhist perspective, isn't it better to invest effort in bringing people together then to make separations? Isn't it better to work for Tibetans and Chinese being able to live together in mutual respect and benefit, then to try to separate them at the huge cost of human suffering?

 

Remember, different solutions are empty - each has potential to be good or bad. It depends on us what we make out of it.

 

I am kind of surprised and sad to read that Buddhist practitioners on Buddhist forum are shocked to read that somebody wishes that the people of two countries could overcome the pain caused in recent history and live together in friendship and harmony. ??? I just don't get what is wrong with wishing this. Isn't this the best solution for the whole world? Anyway, so far only the three of you objected to what I said, while I received positive feedback from many more people.

 

If you want to be objective, you also need to bring attention to my articles describing the negative effects of Chinese rule over Tibet, from the same website.

 

Bye bye!

Matjaz

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I guess this is what Alan did; as you mentioned he was in contact with Shambala institution...
Actually, he did it 2 days after the thread started and after he spread lies about our lineage on your forum.

 

But talking about verifying information, not so long ago you were spreading information about Rinpoche which appeared to be blatantly wrong and gossip, no? (though you were not the creator of this gossip, you seemed to maintain it without to have verified it). So, it's always more easy "to see the straw in the eye of the others instead of the beam in our one"... Or may be we shall see this as a return of karma?

I was wondering if you would bring that up. Quite predictable.

I verified my information to the best of my ability and it was confirmed at that time. I never spread that publicly, as I'm sure you are aware. And I apologized to you directly for having the wrong information.

 

Your comment is kinda funny though, as this whole thing is about you (forum members) perceiving a "straw in the eye of the others" and launching into an attack immediately. And of course, it is the karma of all of us, what else??

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Tashi Delek,

The fact of the matter is that of all the people that received that message, only Dharmaling members found it offensive and launched an attack on us (and the whole organization ) immediately without even bothering to check with us what is going on.

Excuse me, please, but nobody launched any attack on you. The message we received about striptease being suggested on your program seemed so unbeleivable that draftsman exposed it on the forum, so that there could be a discussion about it. Again, there was no indication that it was actually a joke. To be quite frank, I myself didn't find it funny when you explained that it was a joke. The celebration of Losar is a very special time, and for me it's bad taste to suggest something like that for the program, even if it is a joke.

The problem that i see is mixing such suggestions with Buddhist practice. Why not simply practice Dharma on such a special day and have a nice time with friends without such inappropriate mention? Wouldn't it be much better to not poke at desire with such "street humour" at such a time? l-) It's a matter of taste i guess... Dharmaling is a Buddhist Congregation and we take Dharma practice with great humour, but there is a genuine feeling of sacredeness and deep respect for it. It is a great responsibility to be in contact with Dharma. When you are known to be a practicing Buddhist it is very important how you behave towards others - as a result they might or might not create faith towards the Path the fully enlightened Buddha taught.

 

As far as the Talibans mention is concerned - again it's a kind of "street humour" which i don't think is in any way appropriate for people claiming to be Buddhists, claiming to practice Dharma and having functions in the TSG organization. Why, again, boost the desire aspect of others?? You can laugh your way through it, but it will feel bitter at the end, no...? :(

 

Peace. l-)

 

Khyenrab

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Excuse me, please, but nobody launched any attack on you.

Well, this is not how I would describe respect for other traditions:

 

draftsman wrote: based on ancient traditions of the Nyingma, Kagyu and Shambala. This is taken from the group's website.

I there(bis)

We can write whatever on a web site... This isn't an ancient tradition. It has been made up by a man named Chogyam Trumpa. He wasn't monk, and as far as one can read widely on the net his behaviour wasn't very... hum... ethical. Well, at least there is a certain logic with the steaptease organize by his group in your country Very Happy Will there be also lot of alcohol serverd in memory of the creator of Shambala? Wink

Alan

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Actually, he did it 2 days after the thread started and after he spread lies about our lineage on your forum.
Lies or misunderstanding? Good you explain what Shambhala is, so that people can understand better.

This misunderstanding is not from Dharmaling. As you can see, there are some very good books from Trungpa Rinpoche is our virtual library :)

 

I was wondering if you would bring that up. Quite predictable.
I guess "who seeds the wind gets back the storm" ;)

 

I verified my information to the best of my ability and it was confirmed at that time. I never spread that publicly, as I'm sure you are aware. And I apologized to you directly for having the wrong information.
Apologies surely accepted. But this surely allows you today to understand that some other can also be convinced that their informations are "at the best of their ability and confirmed" at a time in their understanding.

It is good that the "Buddhist Talibans" have a forum where things can be cleared up from time to time... as there isn't much direct contact between our communities in Slovenia (despite Dharmaling attempts).

 

as this whole thing is about you (forum members) perceiving a "straw in the eye of the others" and launching into an attack immediately.
Yes, this is always what people say. May be there is a bit of paranoia behind this feeling no? Where is the "attack"? Many time who mention "attack" from Dharmaling or Dharmaling members as well, where obvioulsy there was none...

 

Thank you.

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Excuse me, please, but nobody launched any attack on you.

Well, this is not how I would describe respect for other traditions:

Wouldn't it be better to say: lack of knowledge? I myself haven't read any book from this lineage, it is not very well known to my understanding... And there can easily be misinterpretations about it, no? Thanks to you, we got some good information about the history of Shambhala...

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Yes, this is always what people say. May be there is a bit of paranoia behind this feeling no? Where is the "attack"? Many time who mention "attack" from Dharmaling or Dharmaling members as well, where obvioulsy there was none...

The one I posted above felt like that. Of course it is a matter of perception. I am sure if I would to say that Lama Shephen is just some guy who made up his lineage, you would not find it amusing? (please, this is just an example, ok? )

 

or this:

... just one of the "clever marketing moves" to attract as much as many people.

or this:

To encorage one to do/make somthink what she/he won’t never perform in other environments, under other conditions to get read of fearlesness is not what I’ll recognite as compassionate gesture. And if one person due to "encoragments" and "group energy" agree with and say yes to show others how good/how advanced practitionar is she/he this I would identify as ABUSEMENT! Very subtel but still abusment in a sence of very tricky enery manimulation. I don't know Shambala traditon and their masters, but if they are involved in such "programm" of spiritual development this can bee a signe of deep degeneration and huge muck hidenig in their “inner circleâ€.

I hope for all people in Shambala grupe they will make the rounds of such a reefs.

I guess these kinds of things do not seem very kind and respectful. Though perhaps based on misunderstanding, which I thought was cleared, but judging on this thread it was not. :( Next time there will be tons of smilies next to our emails so that nobody can mistake anything for what it is not.

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