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ketunbaraga

teaching is just another illusion

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one of the main dificulties with teachers is that most of the time they talk to you as though you are a separate individual and you have a choice.

 

and in order to get liberated you have to accomplish so many practices and to go through various proceses and to traverse various paths and to accumulate so much merit.

 

and if you do this sometime in the future "you" will become liberated.

 

here ...when i mention teachers i have in mind the majority of tibetan teachers and not only them...

 

there are lots of faults with this message .but on the other hand we live in a relativ domain where we still have to do things,to relate to each other and to live our lives..

and on the other hand every thing lacks substance and all those paths virtues,methods,proceses do not exist but appear to exist, wich misleads people in believing that they need to do all the things mentioned .

 

this misunderstanding mainly comes from the continuos emphazis on the part of our teachers that we are separate individuals and we need" to do" all these things...

 

now ... i have a few questions???

how can you get to where you already are and you've already been from the very begining?

how can any process take you to that place where you've been all along?

how can"you"get liberated?

why a teacher still reinforces the belief that if "you do this" then "you can get there" ?

why a teacher still adresess you as though you are a separate individual and you are not that wich you are looking for and the thing you are looking for is actually sometime in the future only after you've accomplished so many things??

why they stil reinforce the illusion that is something that can be understood and accomplished when there is nobody there to understand anything and to accomplish anything but only appears to be??

 

all they do is reinforce the illusion and the dream ...

 

ketunbaraga

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If you wouldn't have yourself the feeling of existing, why would you feel the need to post this message??

 

Thank you

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I beleive you are mistaken. We need to tread the Path of virtue, ethics and goodness to accumulate enough merits so that our mind becomes ripe and mature for higher trainings of meditation on insight and wisdom. This will Liberate us, without doubt. Without a qualified Teacher this is not possible, because he shows the way, teaches what to practice at our stage of development. Without the Guidance of a qualified Lama we are subject to many illusions (such as lack of patience and misunderstaning the methods and technics with which we engage in spirituality, not to even mention the goal of the Path!), and can't really progress in our endeavour. This is a fact.

 

Khyenrab

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to khyenrab

 

you are very much in the dark believing that there is a stage of development wich reflects our present condition.

because our present condition is as good as the other one.

 

as long as you believe that you are on a certain stage everything you will do will be in accord with that particular understanding where you will think that there is advancment taking place and you can get from the dream state of development to the dream state of liberation wich is gonna happen sometime in the future.this is how the dream goes on and on and on......

 

 

to gigu the moderator

 

i don't know what you understood from my message but i certainly did not said that i do not exist wich is a very mistaken position to take,but i said that things appear to exist wich leads us to understannd that there is a conventional reality where everithing appears to manifest and where things go on as before.

my argument was that teachers stiil reinforce the dream , the apparent reality spoken of above ,by making us believe that we need to do variuos things to get to the state of liberation..making us plunge even deper into the dream.here i do not want to give the impression that we don't need to do these things but to emphasize the need of balancing the absolute perspective with the relative one..

 

the true teacher will allways tell you that you are allready the thing you seek (and if you can see that is wonderfull)and you don't need him ,anybody for that to happen..

but he will not tell you that you are perfect either because that will promote laziness .he will just encourage you to discover that wich is allways been but not by reinforcing the dream character wich is "you"

 

 

ketunbaraga

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Hello :)

how can you get to where you already are and you've already been from the very begining?

Just a small remark: according to buddhism, there is no beginning. What we relatively label as "mind", is beginingless, at least according to what we label as "beginning" with our limited human faculties... :lol:

All the best, Frederic.

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

one of the main dificulties with teachers is that most of the time they talk to you as though you are a separate individual and you have a choice.
Teachers are addressing different disciples in different ways, according to their level and according to the circumstances. The Bodhisattva vow not to teach Emptiness to the unprepared is not here by coincidence: more subtle topics can be fearful at the beginning.

 

all those paths virtues,methods,proceses do not exist but appear to exist
They neither exist nor not exist – they are dependently arising. Told in another way: although on the Ultimate level they have no inherent existence, on the conventional level they still do function.

 

wich misleads people in believing that they need to do all the things mentioned .
Do you believe that a cat with no (or very little) conceptual thinking is less caught in illusionary world then a human being? :// The majority of beings do not care about these paths, virtues, methods and processes – and what is the result? Enlightenment does not just “happen” out of the blue. -8)-

 

how can you get to where you already are and you've already been from the very begining?
By the process of unlearning (wrong attitudes and actions).

Unfortunately our ego, at least mine, is usually quite rigid and stubborn, so it does not happen over the night. But a practice makes a Master. This is what practices are for. :wink:

 

why a teacher still reinforces the belief that if "you do this" then "you can get there" ?
I guess only a Teacher really knows it. Nevertheless, most of us are unable to perceive all the disguises of our ego and the karmic consequences of its activities; their advices for practices etc. have the power to prevent suffering and obstacles that we might encounter in the future. I believe that ALL a qualified Guide does is an act of Compassion and Wisdom, no matter how odd it might look like. l-)

 

all they do is reinforce the illusion and the dream ...
I’ve never meat or read a Teacher who would deny that all the phenomena are like a dream or illusion, starting with the Buddha Shakyamuni. !:!

Many times they use a kind of “homeopathic” or “diamond cuts diamond” approach, like conceptual analysis (reductio ad absurdum) is used for realization of Emptiness. But there are many more skilful means, which we are often unable to perceive. With all these methods they are helping us to become more and more pliant, opened, compassionate, aware, sharp-minded… :D

 

because our present condition is as good as the other one.
This sounds like a contradiction to all the Four Noble Truths, starting with the first one, the truth of suffering (on any level: suffering of pain, change or limitations). :maybe:

 

as long as you believe that you are on a certain stage everything you will do will be in accord with that particular understanding
This is often true. But also, if you don’t have a goal, you won’t reach anywhere.

 

the true teacher will allways tell you that you are allready the thing you seek
To my experience, Buddhism is at the first instance working on ego – our only true enemy. How can we see the nature of our mind, if it is veiled by thick layers of delusions, which we hold as a treasure? A true Teacher will never hesitate to point out our ego. When we are ready to confront it and work on it, of course. :lol:

 

Our true nature is indeed Clear and All-Knowing, but this is not in contradiction to the gradual paths to Enlightenment. Since we are not able to live in the Ultimate and conventional reality at the same time - unless you are Enlightened – there is still a need for some willing activity until Wisdom and Method are perfected. This way our limitations / obscurations are removed. :)) As Chandrakirti said about the activities of a Bodhisattva in the Madhyamakavatara:

"Conventional reality therefore becomes their means

And by this means, the Ultimate is reached."

 

All the very best,

Chödrön

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how can you get to where you already are and you've already been from the very begining?

how can any process take you to that place where you've been all along?

how can"you"get liberated?

why a teacher still reinforces the belief that if "you do this" then "you can get there" ?

are you truely happy? do you feel completely free to live your own choices?

why a teacher still adresess you as though you are a separate individual and you are not that wich you are looking for and the thing you are looking for is actually sometime in the future  only after you've accomplished so many things??

my experience is completely opposite to what your teacher passes on to you...

why they stil reinforce the illusion that is something that can be understood and accomplished when there is nobody there to understand anything and to accomplish anything but only appears to be??

again, my experience is different. The Teacher I learn from stresses the experience.

all they do is reinforce the illusion and the dream ...

sory, again just the opposite...what He reinforces is Reality.

My very best regards,

pamo

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Tashi Delek ketunbaraga.

 

I don`t know what kind of teachings you`ve been received. But, in the consideration to your dilemma, I would say they have not been from the scope of the Buddhist Middle Way school. I read in the book that the other schools but the Middle Way cannot explain fully how being interdependant

we live in a relativ domain where we still have to do things,to relate to each other and to live our lives..
and being empty of inherent existence
every thing lacks substance and all those paths virtues,methods,proceses do not exist but appear to exist
necessarily complement each other
emphasize the need of balancing the absolute perspective with the relative one..

Best regards,

Simona

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