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billytiss

Rapist, abusers...

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Since I would like to properly deal with the view of people who do not treat other sentient beings well or sometimes even horrible, I would like to know what are all possible ways of viewing the obuser and the obused person in the most Bodhichitta way.

 

All positive views are welcome :)

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek dear Dechen,

 

I think the best approach is equanimity, Bodhicitta and Wisdom. This principle seems to be most helpful with the everyday little injustices as well as with more serious forms of suffering and causing of suffering, including on the social level, not just individual one.

 

EQUANIMITY. All beings (accept Buddhas) suffer in one of the three ways (because of pain, changes or limitations) and all wish to be happy and free of suffering.

If we think of all the eons and eons of our lives, we can see that we’ve been playing all the roles that samsara consists of at least once. We were abusers and abused, as well as good and wise beings – we have been driving a hoop of samsara, up and down, since beginningless time.

Thirdly, the true nature of all sentient beings, no matter in what kind of state of mind they are now, is Buddha Nature. :prostate:

 

BODHICITTA. Our present "enemies" have been our loving mother in the past. You can see in everyday how ignorance leads to negativities, which lead to further negativities… and in next life, it might be hard to be born under good conditions…It’s easy to loose everything, if one is not attentive and well guided. :( It's hard to blame one for this. But we can try to create conditions in which goodness will maybe increase, and at the same time we can do everything that is needed to develop our potentials, so that we will be soon able to help in the most effective way. 

The abuser is in a worse position: the abused is purifying his own negative karma created in the past, while the abuser is adding new negative karma, and if by doing this he damages the mind of another being, and if that being creates negative karma on this basis, this further multiplies the negative karma of the abuser. This might tighten the chains of suffering for him and make it much harder to find peace and happiness. :,( It is good to prevent further abuses. But it depends on different inner and outer conditions. Sometimes the most we can do is to pray. :prayer:

Some abused beings (people, animals...) are full of wounds, insecure, unstable. Some are trying to gain happiness in wrong ways (like easy living, drugs…). Some don’t trust themselves or the others, or even if they do, they quickly loose hope or faith. :verysad: So, giving them support and strength can be helpful. :yes:

 

WISDOM. What ultimately frees us from suffering is realization of Emptiness, but also mundane wisdom can be of good help. We can help a suffering person (or social group) to give up the patterns which might have be useful in war (in times of suffering or injustice) but are not useful in peace, to build a more appropriate attitude towards themselves and the situations in which they find themselves.

On this point it is good to be careful: if you start to demolish wrong concepts, one can find himself groundless and disoriented, :scaredead: so it’s good to have a parallel approach with supportive techniques, offering something positive that one can lean on or aspire for. :no1: According to my experiences with children with behaviour problems, praising and kindness help far more then too much critique. :))

It’s good to keep in mind that whatever we are experiencing is a transient reflection of our past karma. Grasping to it, holding to the past, being it good or bad, creating an identity out of it, doesn’t bring anything good. It’s better to take it as a learning situation that can help us to develop compassion for others. :bow:

 

All the best,

chödrön

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Tashi delek,

 

Maybe, if we think of the abusers as our kind former mothers, who took care of us many times in the past, giving us everything we needed to the best of their abilities; who are now completely blinded by Ignorance and mental afflictions, causing great harm to other sentient beings. :,( Commiting the ten non-virtuous actions (as sexual misconduct) will bring great, unbearable sufferings to them in the future. They might end up in the hells, or as craving spirits, and stay there for a very very long time; or they might be re-born as animals many times. :( We can study Lamrim, the 'Sufferings of the lower realms' section, to get a clearer picture. Arya Nagarjuna said that being impaled 300 times on a spear in one single day is nothing compared to the slightest suffering one has to endure in the hells.

 

I feel that those people who cause such terrible harm deserve even more compassion and loving-kindness (if we keep in mind the gruesome karma they are creating). We can engage in Dharma practices for their benefit, wishing strongly that we would soon have the Wisdom and the Skill to help them.

 

Best regards,

Khyenrab

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Tashi Delek!

 

But I also think that while keeping in our mind the described attitude of equanimity, loving kindness and compassion, in the "outside world" we must act to stop such actions.

If we are not strict and decisive enough, we may allow the person (rapist, abuser) to collect much more negativity - so in the long term a "soft&kind approach" can bring him/her more harm and suffering than a stricter, seemingly more "cruel" one.

 

All the best.

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Tashi Delek!

I strongly agree with Ani-la and Kyenrab. As fare as I understood, they talk about inner state or inner understanding of such situations and problems. Wangmo put more emphasis on outer/conventional reactions. I think both is very important, even more without cultivating bodhicitta, wisdom and good qualities one can not react in a proper way. Trought development of good qualities we intent to become more sensible to such occurrences and it is our duty to raise the voice against any kind of abusive behavior and protect those who need protection. We all know that our society is tend to keep in secret lots of “small abuses”- terrible, but some families keep their secrets and scarifies victims to protect person committing a CRIME. Of who’s good? To protect their society out-fit only! Sorry, for strong emotional impact, but such stories makes me sick :0022:, despite all my Buddhists believe.

Regards,

Tatjana

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Tashi Delek!

 

I believe that we should not look at rapist, abusers the "old american" style but in fact we should look at them as the very negative beings which we can be very happy to find since they are the ones who will teach us much....

 

By the meaning old american style is their revenge toward all who do something wrong - very negative and very wrong if you ask me. Instead let's also look at these beings as potentials which may later on benefit millions of sentient beings!!! So instead of looking them negatively - let's look at them as Ani and Kyenrab already said with wisdom, equanimity and bodhicitta.

 

 

Best regards

Namgyel

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

i agree also with Wangmo and Tatjana - acting by law and similar means in a very conventional way (while inner motivation should be compassionate) prevents further unnecesarily suffering, doesn't it?

 

I think that what helps me most to establish compassionate attitude when seeing very negative people, responsible for deaths or suffering of many beings, is to remember that this is my own past (in eons of previous lives). That the essence of them and me is no different. The difference is in the amount of delusions which direct our actions in our quest for happiness.

 

Best regards,

chödrön

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There are quite some Bodhisattva vows, which more or less directly regulate actions towards abusers (depending of the concrete situation). Quotation below taken from http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/resource...attva_vows.html

 

Among the root vows:

 

1. Praising yourself and denigrating others (also a secondary vow).

You must avoid praising yourself and, with delusion, criticising and denigrating others through wanting to gain offerings, respect or some sort of profit. Praising yourself and criticising, denigrating or complaining about others creates heavy negative karma as well as breaking this root bodhicitta vow.

 

3. Not forgiving though someone apologises (also a secondary vow).

Refusing to accept the apology of someone who wrongs you and then apologises, breaks this root vow. Also, if someone breaks vows or precepts and confesses that negative action to you, you must be prepared to accept their confession.

 

18. Giving up bodhichitta.

If you give up your aspiration to attain enlightenment, or your determination to benefit all living beings, or any single living being for that matter, you will incur this downfall. Having taken a vow to benefit all living beings, to give up this purpose is to abandon them and doing so cheats all living beings. You destroy the very basis of your Mahayana practice.

Among the secondary vows:

 

8. Forsaking those who have broken their moral discipline.

These people will need advice and help with releiving their guilt. They should not be treated with contempt or be ignored.

 

11. Not knowing the full purpose of compassion.

If it serves a special purpose for others, it is permissible for a Bodhisattva to commit the seven non-virtues of body and speech. If you refuse to commit a such a non-virtue, when by doing so you could help numberless sentient beings, you will incur this downfall. Generally, you have to avoid all non-virtues. But when the circumstances arise in which, through compassion, you can help numberless sentient beings by engaging in one of the seven non-virtues of body and speech, then you must do so. For instance, suppose you were living in the country and a hunter came by and asked you whether you had seen any deer. If you had seen some and decided not to lie, you would keep your Vinaya precepts and retain observance of the seven virtues, but the hunter would kill the deer. In this case you should rather tell a lie than follow the normal rule. This judgement obviously requires wisdom.

 

16. Not employing the methods to overcome others' negativities.

If it is possible to overcome others' negativities of body and speech through forceful methods, but you elect to use flattery and help them save face instead, you incur this downfall. You should make an effort and use all your skill and suitable methods to help those who create negative actions, break their vows, harm others and so on. Where possible, teach them ways to purify negative karma, such as the 4 opponent powers, and practise such methods yourself as an example.

 

18. Not caring about those who are angry.

Do not add fuel to the anger of others by neglecting or ignoring those who are angry with you. Instead of closing yourself off, try to communicate and dissipate their anger. If you cause a problem for others or you have suspicious projections that they are harming you, and then through pride, laziness, malice or other delusions you do not clear the air by apologising when you have the opportunity you incur this downfall.

 

35. Neglect to help whoever needs assistance.

Not providing counselling, teaching, protection, shelter, guidance and so on when you have the opportunity and capability to do so, but through anger, laziness or other delusions you decline to help, you will break this branch vow. This relates especially to situations where you promised to help.

 

37. Not dispelling sufferings of others.

If you do not help to dispell the suffering of the blind, deaf, handicapped, those who are exhausted, afflicted by the five obstacles, under the influence of malicious thoughts and superstition, and those derided by others, you will incur this downfall

 

45. Not using force when necessary.

If, due to laziness malice, you do not expel, punish or deflate the pride of those who need it, you will incur this branch down-fall. Some situations may require forceful action to stop harm.

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What I am finding as a good tool to soften the non compassionate reaction after your comments is:

1. this sentient being (obuser) has a potential to become a Buddha and I need to reach spiritual realizations to help this being - maybe good to reflect on Milarepa

2. Until I do not have neccessary tools to help think about all the aspects of negative karma that person is creating by such actions and think about Bodhisattva vows :) and ways to improve myself for the benefit of others

3. Have compassion for the person going through much suffering, since the karma they have created is very heavy and their experiences are not comming from the obuser, but from their side

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There is, if I remember correctly, this story of Yeshe Tsogyel (a female deciple of Pama Sambhava) being raped. I think there were four rapists. She sang them a song where she (now here I am simlifying this) displayed a pure view (seeing everything as a pure, all beings as Budhas and Bodhisattvas) and understanding the true nature of phenomena, displaying Bodhichitta, told them due to ripening of karma and merits, etc.. but to try to achieve this on purpose brings a heavy downfall.. They all became her deciples and gained emediate realisations. She is like the ideal example of how to deal with this kind of situation..

 

On more conventional level, realising that actions can be condemned as wrong without loosing compassion. And all that you've said already  ;)

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The attitude is important i know on how i view the abuser.  But there is also law that protects the victim and enables the criminal to work with their karma.  Going to jail is an opportunity for the person to face their karma.  We also have to prevent them from harming others.  This worsens their karma.  i don't see it as retribution.

 

We also have to help the victim person.  They can worsen their karma too with hate.  It all takes patience and care and sometimes time.  Healing does seem to take time.

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Tashi Delek,

 

I think that jailing system isn't ok. OK - the one that broke the laws pays the price - but is it really fair?

 

Most jails have such a poor system that people who get in, get out even more corrupted than they were. Our social view is completely missviewed! We send people to jail so they would pay for crimes that did - Isn't that wrong??? We should send them to jail so they would get reeducated, so they would be socialized... Not to revenge something.

 

For example.: In USA they have killing cells in which they kill people in front of the familiy, friends of the victim/s!! Is that right and moral??? Is it moral to kill a person just because he did something wrong - probably isn't even aware of it? I think our tolerance to these things is low ... too low.

 

We had a discussion at Amnesty after watching the movie called The Death and The Maiden (think it was like this). There was dr. Dragan Petrovec who told us that once there was a prison in Slovenia in which the prisoners were taken and were considered equal as the guards. If I remember correctly they had places in which they talked, they were allowed to go home at weekends - suprisingly the people returning to the place went too such a minimum that it was called a complete success 8*. However I think it was at the end of Yugoslavia that went away and crime was higher again...

 

The interesting thing is that if you give chance to most of the people who did something wrong let them be rapist, abusers... , if you reeducate you gain so much by doing that.

 

How ever hurt you may be, it is not right to let our emotions lead the way... We should look at these things wisely through reincarnation, karma and whole LamRim...

 

At least this is what I think,

 

Best regards,

Namgyel

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Tashi Delek dear Namgyel,

Most jails have such a poor system that people who get in, get out even more corrupted than they were. Our social view is completely missviewed! We send people to jail so they would pay for crimes that did - Isn't that wrong??? We should send them to jail so they would get reeducated, so they would be socialized... Not to revenge something.

In principle I agree with you, but we have to be realistic. In the 70's of the previous century the idea of re-socialization was very popular: the idea to transform the prisoners for the better during their jail time, but it had very few results in the long term :(.

 

I think the main problem is that once in prison, the person has already been walking on the wrong path for years or decades: probably from a disfunctional family, quitting school or job, committing crimes and finally getting caught. So, this process probably cannot be overturned very quickly. Drug addicts e.g. volunteer to go to a commune, but many of them still fail to change. Yet, no one volunteers to go to prison, so many play along just to get out sooner not to really change.

 

What I wanted to say is that the prison is the lowest point: if whole society failed to stop the degradation of one person on previous levels, it is difficult to expect that everything can be done on the bottom. Although there are always exceptions :yes:.

 

Best regards,

Drafstman

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Agreed - primary socializations are the most important. If the person is lost there it's very hard to repair the damage. However I think that is still better to do that than to throw people in prisons - in a society which is even more currupt than the one he was already in. I'm not talking about the people who won't even begin to change in this lifetime, which in my opinion is very sad but about the people who may change and are not completely destroyed. This reminds me about the story of Milarepa. He was a black sorcerer if I'm not mistaken and later on has with propour guidance enlightened himself... I think that all beings should be able to get to Dharma and by putting them in prison we prevent many from that.

 

I agree there should be a place for people who did terrible crime - but in my opinion this prison that we have isn't the answer...

 

 

Best regards,

Namgyel

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i know a man who teaches meditation and yoga in a maximum security prison in South Dakota.  i taught non-violent practice in medium and maximum security prisons in North Carolina and South Dakota for several years, men and women.  There can be opportunities in that setting. 

 

And i think you must not discount the emotions of the victim, often a woman.  She must pass through that too.  And sometimes the justice system, though flawed, is a good recourse for her to deal with her pain and grow. 

 

i pray for the prey and the predator. 

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And i think you must not discount the emotions of the victim, often a woman.  She must pass through that too.  And sometimes the justice system, though flawed, is a good recourse for her to deal with her pain and grow. 

I do agree that the victim suffers but that victim will live in a world where (s)he has all the opportunity to learn Dharma and a way to liberation. It's not a good thing to punish all who did wrong. By some people (a lot) has right the opposit effect - they grow even more violent and disastered.

 

is a good recourse for her to deal with her pain and grow

I agree that a person will grow after receiving that much suffering at once. However - do you think that the victim will grow compassion/enlightenment because his attacker is in jail? And will this really help both of them? In my opinion this is a matter which we take to lightly, we don't think of the consequences - we may help one by being safe, however we may have doomed the other. Our society is getting more and more bloodthirsty - the prison is just part of this bloodthirstyness....

 

What I want to say is - we are in modern times and not middle ages, Rome etc. Do we really need this kind of prisons? Do we need this kind of negative view on the people who did something wrong?

 

The problem is not in prisons, victims, attackers... it's in core of our society. We judge (as I also did in previous post about Adyashanti :nono:) and we become bloodthirsty. Instead of working on that and trying to change it - our society in a way even promotes (here I'm more refering to America) bloodshed. We MUST develop understanding, compassion toward all - as the victim and also the attacker otherwise we won't be able to surpass all that negative influence we receive from TV, newspapers etc.  :,(

 

And all that is possible since it has been done (Tibet for example had very low crime rate if I understood correctly) also on our gounds before Slovenia took it's shape.

 

 

 

Best regards,

Namgyel

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Guest Ani.Chodron
We MUST develop understanding, compassion toward all - as the victim and also the attacker

... and Patience and Wisdom... Because, due to our limited abilities and lack of Wisdom that cuts through delusions, often we can not help people who are willing to grow in good, while there are also persons, who disregard good and even consciously act against it, developing a firm habit out of it. :[ In this case i believe it is better to protect the possible further victims. Maybe we will be able to help the attackers their next life. Or the next. And the next... As long as needed. :prayer:

 

With all the very best wishes,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek!

 

is a good recourse for her to deal with her pain and grow

I agree that a person will grow after receiving that much suffering at once.

Not very likely, not without a lot of work.

Often, the victims of abuse live long years in anger and hatred, and these aren't directed (only) at the abuser. Many even become abusers later.  :,(

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At this site:  http://www.liberationprisonproject.org/

 

they say they are helping 35,000 prisoners in 500 prisons in the USA.  i believe them.

 

Talking in generalizations gets you no where.  You need to look at the persons, the real persons.  It takes some victims as long or longer than the criminal to face  the abuse. 

 

i appreciated what you said Wangmo.  i was abused from age 10-17.  i have been a Tibetan Buddhist for the last 4-5 years; before that 20 years as a zen Buddhist.

i did not heal until 2 years ago.  And i know others who live their pain daily and cannot see past it.  And i have known criminals who refused to face their deeds.  But, some took steps to entertain that there may be an alternative to violence. 

 

But, who would listen to me say "you must become non-violent, and make reparations to your victim."  Or even, to the victim, "this too shall pass,"

or " you have to get over it in order to grow."

 

i have learned that patience is part of compassion.  We cannot force anyone to change.  We give them support and time.  And we keep our minds open.  Even the monks and nuns who have survived torture in Chinese prisons have prayed for their captors.  And we give ourselves support and time.

 

It is a hard lesson to understand that your enemies are your greatest gifts.  i still struggle with that.  And i only encountered that practice in Buddhism.  Many people don't know this at all.

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Having said all that before, i found this very good article:  Prison Dharma on the Edge by Kobutsu Malone at-

 

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id...=8,2845,0,0,1,0

 

It is a complex issue.  Some teachers have said that the 6 realms do exist in this world or are aspects of our own minds.  So perhaps prisons are hell realms.

 

Not an excuse, we do what we can.  Pray for the inmates and guards and the victims and everybodies' families.   

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Pray for the inmates and guards and the victims and everybodies' families.   

I agree.

 

Best regards,

Namgyel

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