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radulazar

controversial issues regarding some Dharma teachers

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Hello everyone!

 

I am not new to this board even though I never posted here. I am a Lama Shenphen student since 2001 and I am posting this on a board because I want to see various oppinions on the matters that disturbed me for the past days.

 

First of all, I never knew that Chögyam Trungpa has died from severe liver failure due to alcohol. It would never bothered me if the official site of Naropa University from US stated that clearly. Instead, I found out on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa).

Furthemore, his disciple ösel Tendzin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sel_Tendzin) contracted HIV and had sexual intercourse with several students and aparently some of them died because of this (Osel Tendzin died of AIDS in 1990). I understand as good as I can the crazy wisdom doctrine, but I cannot see any benefit in giving HIV to others, since Tendzin was aware of his illnes. To me, it looks like murder.

I was also shocked to find out that Dilgo Khyentse and the 16th Karmapa supported Chögyam Trungpa's behaviour.

 

Now, I want to talk about another characther that was recognized as a high reincanation by Penor Rinpoche. It is the american actor Steven Seagal. Who was in my country, Romania, for a few months to shot some movies.

All this time, Seagal was running around with at least ten women and he attented a fashion festival here, organized by a man who, in Romania, is connected (in the public consciousness) with drugs and prostitution. In fact, the man I am talking about lives offshore since the last elections (in Ibiza) and it constantly under the surveilance of the romanian secret services.

 

At this fashion event, Seagal said nothing but good words about Nicu Gheara, the man I was writing above. Here is a link in english for those who are not from Romania and obviously have doubts about what I am saying (http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:G7D1VtuO1ykJ:www.crji.org/arhiva/e_030526_1.htm+nicu+gheara&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1)

 

I have no questions. I just want to share this with you and wait for your oppinions.

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Guest Felix

Tashi Delek!

 

Interesting. I was just wondering about how to keep pure view when encountering clearly unethical situations. Like this or like politics. We live in the Kaliyuga and we will probably encounter more and more situations like this. :verysad:

 

I believe that strange behaviour of the Masters reflects our own karmic load of obscurations: we didn’t create enough merit to see them in the aspect of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas with pure ethical conduct. :blush: But we can see them as showing a wrathful aspect: Kyabje Zopa Rinpoche writes that even when it looks like a Pristine Lama is causing suffering, it means that He is helping the beings to clear out the Path to Enlightenment by purification, even when He kills, it means that He is liberates beings...  :prostate:

 

Another thing is how Western mind encounters crazy wisdom. I often heard a member of a Shambhala group say that Ösel Tendzin “showed the aspect of crazy wisdom too” – although he was regarded as a probably an ordinary being. To me this sounds as if crazy wisdom is a special style of behaviour. :// It was even presented to me that the members of the other schools don’t understand it, almost as if the Shambhala school is specialized for crazy wisdom.

 

I guess that Shambhala group is often a target of accusations. But I wonder why it has never clearly emphasized that without ethical discipline one can not proceed on the Path? And that some things are reserved only for the highest Masters – which most of us are not? This, I believe, would reduce the degree of confusion, conflicts and misunderstanding – and the consequent suffering.

 

:vieuxsmiley: One more thing: on the West we have a lot of pride. But if we want to be like Masters, we have to establish very firm foundation first. We can not skip the step of humbleness. :bow:

 

I don’t wish to hurt anybody. Maybe my views are mistaken, in this case I hope that they will be corrected.

 

Respectfully,

Felix

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Guest Ani.Chodron

Tashi Delek,

 

i believe that we can respectfully express any drawback or doubt about unethical behaviour and restrain from it ourselves while keeping a pure view about the Guru in His various aspects.

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Tashi Delek

 

Maybe someone who undersdants a little about "crazy wisdom" could share that with us. Even though, it is obviously a murder to give others HIV when you know you are infected. And it is obviously a big mistake to give Steven Seagal a tulku recognition just for the money (I am pretty sure money were involved).

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Tashi Delek,

 

I agree with Felix that some things are reserved only for the highest Masters and that ethical discipline should be pursued.

 

But I don't understand one thing: it is said that if the Teachers do some negative things it is because of our negative karma and on the other hand even in that case - because it benefits sentient beings. I think Kyabye Zopa Rinpoche even says at one place that Teachers must teach us through expressing mistakes (please, correct me if I misquoted those who know the quote :yes:). Doesn't all this contradict the fact that one should test the Teacher :ssst: ? I mean, if all this is true than it is impossible to test the Teacher with our limited wisdom? It seems quite confusing.

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

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Tashi Delek,

I agree with Felix that some things are reserved only for the highest Masters and that ethical discipline should be pursued.

Even this that "some things are reserved for the highest Masters" is strange: it seems that through history biggest abuses of religion happened when someone acted immoral and got away with it, claiming that he is a realized Teacher. How to take someone seriously as a Teacher, if he has more troubles following the ethical path than the "ordinary" people. And how to discern crazy wisdom Masters from fake immoral masters? If we judge them by their actions and not words... :(

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

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Guest Ani.Chodron

Tashi Delek.

 

But I don't understand one thing: it is said that if the Teachers do some negative things it is because of our negative karma and on the other hand even in that case - because it benefits sentient beings.

To my understanding one should check first and only after gaining complete conviction one should act according to the recommendations. When one is completely convinced in Compassion and Wisdom of the Guru, then it should not be so hard to recognize also wrathful actions as manifestations of His Compassion and Wisdom.

Anyway, as far as i know usually it goes step by step, according to how much faith we have developed.

 

I think Kyabye Zopa Rinpoche even says at one place that Teachers must teach us through expressing mistakes
As far as i know He said in the form of an “ordinary being” (which includes manifesting mistakes), and explained that a Guru appears as such because we are not able to see the “Absolute Guru” - Dharmakaya. (See the Ganden Lha Gya Ma commentary for details: http://www.lamayeshe.com/lamazopa/glg/glg.shtml)

 

I mean, if all this is true than it is impossible to test the Teacher with our limited wisdom? It seems quite confusing.
I don’t think it is completely impossible, although our wisdom is limited. One can start by checking one’s own mind, to avoid being biased in any way. Then one can follow the recommendations from the Texts (the 10 points that a Guru should have, for example). The third thing is judging the tree by its fruit. You can see how other Lamas act according to the Guru. You can always ask questions, when having doubts. You can also see the effect on your own life… So there are tools.

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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It is indeed not an easy issue. The deeds of a Qualified Master are not simple to evaluate with the eyes of an ordinary being.

Throughout the History, there are always been Masters challenging the rules and concepts, including from an ethical point of view. They have acted out of “crazy Wisdom”, as we say. They did so to achieve a specific goal, for the benefit of others. Skillful means.

 

Yet - and this is often where the mistake lies - it doesn’t mean that ordinary beings have to follow the steps of these “crazy wise Masters”. There are Texts, Teachings of the Buddhas, and this is what we have to follow; keeping in mind that rules and words are also subject to attachments and mistakes, and therefore we have to be careful to do not end caught in the “letter” for than in it’s “meaning”.

 

As far as I know, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche - whatever his own behavior was - never rejected ethics and vows. Trungpa Rinpoche might have acted in the way which He deemed the best to touch as many beings as possible. And indeed, he has helped greatly many beings, and spread the Dharma in the West. I think no one can judge Him for his own behaviour, his private life. Though, yes, practitioners might not have to follow his private example, but His public and valuable teachings and books.

 

In all times, there has been Enlightened Beings who modified, or sometime reformed (as Lama Tsong KhaPa) an existing Lineage. It was according to ‘times and places’, according to the needs of many beings.

 

Buddhism is coming in the West. Though we follow the Tibetan lineage, we are not Tibetan; many things existing in “Tibetan Buddhism” doesn’t fit our lives, background, and “pagano-Christian” enrooted societies. Symbols, superstition, Laws, are different too.

The basis of Buddhism is an alive, dynamic system of thoughts, understanding, practices, which has already adapted in several countries where it took roots. It is not attached to one unique area. The mind is the same, whatever color of skin or History; and the Teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha was directed to the mind. Tthus, it is a universal Religion.

 

Tibetan Buddhism will, because it has to, adapt to the Western countries. Yet, it has to be done with complete Wisdom, so to keep the Essence of Buddha-Dharma un-alterated.

 

All the best,        Gelong T. Shenphen

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