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Guest Petra S

Phowa

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Guest Petra S

Hi,

 

I received some invitation to phowa initiation and now I have new questions. I prefer to ask here because what I read here makes sense :bow: and the others are maybe also interested about it, at least if they are half as curious as I am. :laugh: I don't know Tantric vows, but I hope it is not against them to answer this questions.

 

Is phowa really the quickest and the most direct path to enlightenment? Someone told me that it is not phowa but dzokchen or something like this. :read_this: So what is the quickest path then?

 

"The great benefit of phowa is that the signs of understanding (realization???) appear at once, without long years of strict and precise meditation practice." Can somebody tell me more about it, because this sounds great? Especially if we are not Buddhists and don't know exactly how we should meditate. This phowa sounds more practical. :yes:

 

"This practice is especially suitable in our times, when the majority of us can not afford a luxury of long meditation practices in seclusion." Com'on, how many people would sincerely wish to meditate in seclusion for a long time? :0022: But to leave it aside, is it true that when we have a phowa initiation we don't need long meditations? Why would one need them anyway? :dontknow: Especially if we know the shortcut.

 

Bye,

Petra

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Guest lodreu

Tashi Delek,

 

Is phowa really the quickest and the most direct path to enlightenment? Someone told me that it is not phowa but dzokchen or something like this. :read_this: So what is the quickest path then?
We could say that Tantra is the quickest path, the fourth class of Tantra being the more potent to help us actualize our Buddha nature.

Powa, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc... Are some systems of practices within Tantra, so are equivalent in a way. What is more important to define I think is why, when and how Tantra? ;)

Tantra is based on the thourough practice of a Deity, in every aspect of our life, how to keep our mind in the practice if it is unstable? In other way if we are not close or realized in Shine. How to be able to really generate the necessary accumulation for the first path if we haven't realized Bodhicitta, and how to be able to actualize the second path without Emptiness. And how to generate both of them without Shine?

In other words why to jump fro the 10th floor without a safe landing place? :angel:

 

"The great benefit of phowa is that the signs of understanding (realization???) appear at once, without long years of strict and precise meditation practice." Can somebody tell me more about it, because this sounds great? Especially if we are not Buddhists and don't know exactly how we should meditate. This phowa sounds more practical. :yes:
Like the big red man coming at christmas time :-)

 

"This practice is especially suitable in our times, when the majority of us can not afford a luxury of long meditation practices in seclusion." Com'on, how many people would sincerely wish to meditate in seclusion for a long time? :0022: But to leave it aside, is it true that when we have a phowa initiation we don't need long meditations? Why would one need them anyway? :dontknow: Especially if we know the shortcut.
Shortcut yes, as other systems within the fourth tantric class. But shortcut to what? If you apply a strong energy in a small electrical system you burn it. Tantric practices are dependant on the practionner. You can go up or down, burn your mind or get realized. If one person would want to build a house by the roof, or run 40 kilometers the first day without previous training, jump from a cliff and expect to fly, we would find him completely unrealistic. But strangely when it comes to meditation we expect the same. :D

 

Everybody has to take the responsibility over his own practice, and check what is said or proposed by himself with logic and realism. Nobody wants to make too many efforts, but this might be one of the reason why we are in Samsara, the great illusion. ;-)

 

Best regards,

lodreu.

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I seem to know less about tantra than any other person on this forum...but I hope it's ok to contribute anyhow, because I too am surely curious about all these great secrets of tantra :yes:

 

But there are some things that bother me :taptap: : although I think I have faith and take refuge in the Three Jewels every day, à¢-Ëœtill enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings' I can repeat like a mantra ...I still have to struggle soo much all the time to renounce even the stupidest little bits of Samsara... this makes me wander for someone who is not a Buddhist at all (the case mentioned by Petra) - what does enlightenment mean? When someone comes to you and says come for this or that initiation it's the fastest way to enlightenment...? Why would for example a theist or an atheist want to reach enlightenment?

 

I mean if someone came to me to tell me to come for a ritual that will grant me for sure life in heaven...who cares? I don't want to go to gods' realms after death :nono: ...well ok Tushita is still negotiable ;) But you know what I mean?

 

Another thing I find amazing, the proof of my all pervasive laziness, is that a non-Buddhist is willing to undertake all these à¢-ËœBuddhist' commitments that come out of all the initiations one takes... I want to get enlightened - ok - but not being a Buddhist, why do you want to get stuck with all these à¢-ËœBuddhist' commitments for the rest of your life, maybe some till enlightenment? For hours day after day on the cushion doing commitments...? :(

 

But then many might not be aware at all of the commitments they undertake...

This brings me to the responsibility of those organising or giving initiations. I think this responsibility is shared between the two, isn't it? I understand the (non)practitioner has karma, and also free will to decide...but doesn't it make sense for the one giving initiation to take responsibility too as to whom he/she initiates into what? Aren't there any clear rules in Buddhism about this?

 

I am not suggesting to introduce a police state :stop: , but doesn't it make sense that having taken refuge is a kind of à¢-Ëœa passport' to tantric initiations and that for some higher ones à¢-Ëœa visa' too is required (issued by a qualified master of your own choice)? And wouldn't it be the responsibility of the organiser to check if people who arrive have the necessary à¢-Ëœentry documents'?

It is truly painful to hear the stories like the one from Angie (your post miraculously disappeared - I hope it re-appears) - it looks so easy to get disoriented - as if all of a sudden world turns up side down and you no longer know in which direction you are headed and end up believing it's faster to open the window and jump rather than walk the stairs - it could be true too, but you might want to learn to fly before to take that shortcut.

 

What I truly hope is that before to engage on those steep paths of high tantra, everyone first finds that someone who will give you the 'flying' lessons and act as a loving mother who makes sure you don't open that window on the 10th floor until you first learn how to fly!

And this learning might take time, and effort, and renunciation :angel: and THE à¢-Ëœcushion' :// and ...and I am sure I've heard something about eventually having to unlearn it all too... :ssst:

I can only pray for your friend Angie!

 

P.s. I hope I make sense, but just to avoid misunderstandings: I used 'flying' symbolically, because it fits Lodreu.la's context of jumping from the 10th floor ;-) - :levitation: it DOES NOT have any 'mystical' implications whatsoever ;-).

 

A loving mother refers to a qualified teacher of course;-) it comes from that beautiful meditation on equanimity...most warmly recommended to anyone - including non Buddhists.

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Guest Petra S

Hello,

 

some personal observations:

- Enlightenment is as well known word, just as karma. Many people who are not Buddhists would like to get enlightened and all kinds of teachers, not just Buddhists, are described as enlightened.

- People in general see Buddhism as peaceful and gentle, and don't know anything about commitments, what even dangers on the path.

- When an invitation talks about enlightenment, especially if it contains a lot of promises and if no effort is mentioned, it attracts a reader. A pinch of mysticism helps too.

 

It's good to talk to you. Without you, I wouldn't know anything much about carefulness, responsibility, a need for guidance or similar. :prostate:

 

Another question about initiations. Do we have to be Buddhists to take a usual initiation (not Tantric) or not? What are the consequences if we take initiation, but are not Buddhists?

 

Ciao,

Petra

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Guest lodreu

Tashi Delek,

 

- Enlightenment is as well known word, just as karma. Many people who are not Buddhists would like to get enlightened and all kinds of teachers, not just Buddhists, are described as enlightened.
In this sense it is important, specially for initiations, to know the context in which they are given, otherwise it doesn't make much sense to go and engage yourself into them. Not only from the process of the initiation, but also because you might take some commitments you have no understanding of.

 

- When an invitation talks about enlightenment, especially if it contains a lot of promises and if no effort is mentioned, it attracts a reader. A pinch of mysticism helps too.
This is unfortunately very true, especially when small groups invite a teacher. They are often choosing subjects too advanced, even for the organizers, and fall into a complete commercial attitude. From the way to present the teachings to the costs of the event, often far more charged than what it would costs to cover the expenses of organization. All this to make "numbers". People often think they were successfull because of the number. They had a good retreat because they made 100 000 mantras, or this number of offerings for this number of years, etc... Or because this amount of people came to the initiation. But they forget that by proposing widely certain subjects, and volunterily leaving aside the correct explanation of how to take them, when, and why not, they also share a part of the negativities people will create later on.

 

Another question about initiations. Do we have to be Buddhists to take a usual initiation (not Tantric) or not? What are the consequences if we take initiation, but are not Buddhists?
It seems logical that to enter into a system you have to have developped some basis for it. :angel:

Do not beleive that initiations of the first to third Tantric class can be taken lightly, or that they are powerless. They require a certain understanding before to take them, to have engaged the mind till a certain point to make them effective, to know what to do at the moment of the intiation, to really receive it, etc...

 

Best regards,

Lodreu.

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Hi !!

 

As requested Lodreu I repost my answer about tantric initiation(reference of the first post).

 

I have a good friend, a very good Friend (for her anonyma I'll call her Ju).

So during 2 years Ju were to several Chakras tantric initiations (according to her; But I don't know if this combination really exists).

But at each time she came back home she were afflicted, sad, powerless, lost as never. The more she gone there the more she was lost .. It happened sometimes that so sad she were, she couldn't come to school during a week or 2 ! :(

She sometimes explain to me the practices she done with people ! There were some "hands touching on the different part of the body espacially the chakras positions..).

I asked her who drove the initiations !? A Lama, a qualified teacher or what !?.. She told me it was an european man and each session costed a lot !!

 

In my oppinion I don't think this man was qualified 'cause when we see that during a session the practices are too powerfull for someone we put appart the frail one and we stop .. or make a pose for this person, but it wasn't the case. Moreover ,this person invited Ju to other sessions to upper levels ! (I think this inapropriate !)

 

Now some good friends (that have noticed her state) and I are quite anxious for her. She could suddenly change her mood and be distant. She said She's too emotionaly open and to stop to be fragil she had to "close her door". I find this quite extrem, plus those pratices destroy her I feel it she has no more taste to do anything, no more imagination (she use to had 'cause we're in art school) or when she does something she's always too linked and tires herself by the same way ! :,(

 

what do u think about this ??

 

Now I would like to know even if she didn't ask any help, how should we react in front of her when she retracts herself with any explanations !! (I know we have never to be violent or agressive !!)

And if she asks friends or me to help her, what are the best keys to guide her in the "curing" way ?

 

Because our way in the path to enlightment is to do the best for ourself and for the others with intelligence without ignorance !! :prayer:

 

sorry for mistakes !!

angy

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