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Guest lodreu

Monasticism

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Guest lodreu

Hello to all,

 

In the past years, many people have been confronted to a certain inner our outer challenge, to find for themselves a kind of place within Buddhism, through the different traditions, the wish to get more of the Buddhist concepts, but sometime the difficulty to get to them through the cultural barrier of Tibetan or Asian Buddhism.

One of these difficulties is for some persons to define themselves on the path of Ethics, commitments, vows, etc... Which attitude to adopt toward the challenges of practicing Ethic in our society, which guidelines to follow, how far to engage oneself.

 

I would say that the actual tendency is not to follow a very clear and demanding way, but to take some parts of it, and to leave some aspects ,which we do not want to reach, in the dark. Sometimes volunterily, sometimes not, sometimes fooling ourselves, sometimes others.

Various teachers have emerged with their guidelines, for some of them creating big movements, almost new traditions. Most of the best known following a very adapted way :))

 

Yet, not all of them coming out of the blue as new Gurus, but having a background in a tradition, as recognized Rinpoches, it made people wonder, why to have such behaviour, at the opposite of what they were recognized for. For some of them, it seems there was two ways, the original, and the one they adopted to fit the karma of individuals at a certain point, to hook them on the Path, with their abilities, but also momentarily delusions.

 

Lately I found a quote from one of the late controversial, yet very bright master, Chogyam Trungpa on Ethic, and more precisely monasticism.

"I think the concept of the monastery is always up to date whether it is in medieval times or the 20th century. The monastic tradition has a particular kind of discipline and it displays a natural dignity. Monastic discipline embodies the principals of Shila, Samadhi and Prajna, so that the monastery is in contact with living dharma. Because monastic practitioners are much more in contact with the reality of spiritual discipline, we could say that they are more in contact with the Buddha himself.... The point being that there is some kind of discipline and some kind of natural dignity that the monastic tradition displays"

I particularly liked the dichotomy between the way Chogyam Rinpoche lived, and this explanation. Like the explanation of a Master having expressed his life on the level of those he wanted to lead to a higher goal, but never fooling himself.

 

Best regards,

Lodreu.

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Guest Petra S

Thank you for this post. :)) I would take the opportunity to debate further, if I may.

 

Sometimes people say that one doesn't have to become a monk or a nun to become enlightened and that one can reach the same when staying lay. The arguments of these people (mostly women) are that one needs even more discipline if one engages in social relationships and family and that monasticism is a kind of escapism, in the sense of withdrawing of everyday problems. Despite the vows of monks and nuns - because laymen can lead ethical life and have discipline too.

 

I understood the beautiful quote that you posted, but I still wonder if ordination makes any difference in spiritual path or not, as my friends say? :dontknow: I would appreciate your answer. :bow:

 

Best regards,

Petra

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Tashi Delek dear all,

 

Thank you Lodreu.la for sharing your reflections with us. I could not agree more with Chognyam Trungpa on importance of ethics and discipline, even the natural dignity of monastic discipline. And it could not be stressed enough that it takes a realized being to live the life of Chognyam Trungpa :-)

 

Sometimes people say that one doesn't have to become a monk or a nun to become enlightened and that one can reach the same when staying lay. ..

 

I understood the beautiful quote that you posted, but I still wonder if ordination makes any difference in spiritual path or not, as my friends say? :dontknow: I would appreciate your answer. :bow:

I haven't really heard other women on the topic, but things and 'excuises' similar to what you wrote, have certainly gone through my mind many times, still keeping me safely lay :angel:

 

Another excuse for not taking up ordination my mind found very convincing is also this life in the West...maybe deciding to take ordination to live in a 'seclusion' of a monastery someplace in India, would be quite different. Here in the West, in our country at least, we have no monastery/nunnery, so if I decided to take up ordination, I might have to continue living my life in the same place, same environment, going to work in the morning, paying the rent and electricity bills, yet wearing nun's clothes, head shaved, ... it is possible for sure - we have one very inspiring example of a nun - I am very grateful for the example she sets - it's really admirable, but probably to be able to put up with it and make it an advantage for one's own practice and others, it could take a very special type, very courageous practitioner :bow: .

 

One explanation I have heard that made sense also, so I share it with you, is from a person who's life I think would had been much easier due to health conditions if ordained and living in a monastery, but the guru advice is to stay lay; Since advice did not come with much explanation, the understanding this person developed through years, as it has been told to me, is that many would tend to take ordained persons for granted, in the sense that it is only normal they meditate and practice and are kind and live ethical life (it is nonsense to take it for granted, but we do, don't we) ...it's their 'job' noà¯Ã‚Š :yes: what else are they supposed to do -just sit around :D ; while seeing a lay person dedicating his/her life 100% to Dharma, living a life a bit like a yogi or a yogini, could have a strong impact on yet a certain type of people...indeed, it hit me strongly - lay practitioner, trapped in the same body as mine (female), yet in a much worse health condition, living Dharma with every pore on her skin, 24/7, with such enthusiasm, without a rest, without a complaint, with that natural dignity...it disarmed me completely, hit in the core of my lazy ego-grasping; I wish you met her.

 

It is not really the story about taking ordination or not, it is far away from being a story about the benefits of not becoming ordained; Ordination or not maybe isn't the essential question? Maybe it should be asked how to best benefit others. But this I don't know, I do not know what type of beings I will meet in the future, what could inspire them best, what skills should I develop to be able to help them best...

 

So...my task as I see it now is to work on my mind, the one which still clings firmly to this lay life and many other Samsaric delights...let go...let go...let go completely...and then go to the Guru to ask for advice simply on how to be of best benefit to others...

 

Does it make any sense? :ssst:

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Ups...I forget sometimes...asking advice on how to get Englihtened faster also makes sense, so that I don't have to come for advice on how to best benefit others next time :-)

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Guest Felix

Tashi Delek.

 

Interesting thread, indeed. It is leading to another interesting point: monasticism in Europe has lost the connotation of respect. It is astonishing to see how people treat a fully ordained monk or even a Lama as a kind of “buddyâ€. Even when a monk or a nun is older than they are.

 

I believe that the corruption of traditional European religions did a lot of damage to the spiritual cause. Including to these religions themselves.

Without a stable trust in a spiritual guide, without a model of positive behaviour, how can one possibly believe in his own undiscovered potentials and in his ability to evolve fully? How can one believe that a religion benefits one's goodness and wisdom, if there's no living proof for it? Today we see mostly soldiers and managers of religions, where have all the saints gone?

I believe this is the main cause for the decrease of interest in religions in Europe, and for general Western attitude towards ordained life.

 

Fortunately, in Buddhism Living Masters still exist. And all those who are on the way to become ones, ordained or lay. :bow:

 

Respectfully,

Felix

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Tashi Delek dear Felix and others,

 

I fully agree with you on all accounts;

 

Maybe just a comment to this first point you made:

It is leading to another interesting point: monasticism in Europe has lost the connotation of respect. It is astonishing to see how people treat a fully ordained monk or even a Lama as a kind of “buddyâ€. Even when a monk or a nun is older than they are.

A fully ordained monk does not have it written on his forehead à¢-Ëœfully ordained monk', also a Lama does not necessary wear different clothes than a à¢-Ëœnormal' monk or a à¢-Ëœfully ordained but not a Lama monk' and even those in à¢-Ëœyellow' shirts are not necessary à¢-ËœLamas' nor à¢-ËœRinpoches', they could be - equally worth of respect - à¢-Ëœdoctors of Buddhism' and then there are also lay Lamas or Rinpoches who at first sight look no different from me;

 

Now, beyond the discussion on the practice of equanimity, of exchanging oneself with others or practicing modesty or taming pride by holding oneself beneath all others,..., every being deserves to be respected and treated as a mother sentient being.

 

I think in the West we are not so familiar with so elaborate external expressions of respect as known in Tibetan culture. I didn't grow up with it, I didn't have much opportunity to observe it, nobody taught it to me 'Tibetan' way. But the fact that I am no good in 'performing arts' does not necessarily mean I have any less respect; I see these external expressions of respect as an extremely useful practice of mindfulness (could be also for taming pride), so I try to learn and put into practice, but I try to recognize it as such, practice of mindfulness and accumulation of merits :angel: - I think it's easily mistaken for 'performing arts' to please or impress others. :clown:

 

As far as 'buddies' are concerned...I've been teaching for a while (languages) and in that role of a teacher I think the relationship established with students depended every time on both sides. I could not decide to be their 'buddy' if they did not accept it and equally, if they wanted to treat me as a 'buddy' and I didn't find it appropriate, they could try, but it did not work either. We could only be 'buddies' when both sides 'agreed' to it, regardless of age.

 

It brings me back to my favourite, inevitable 'responsibility'. But then this is just my experience, my perception, my projection :ssst: Don't you think responsibility here too is shared?

 

Maybe I misunderstood your concept of a 'buddy' :// ?

 

Fortunately, in Buddhism Living Masters still exist. And all those who are on the way to become ones, ordained or lay.

:prostate:

 

With love and prayers!

D.

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I believe that the corruption of traditional European religions did a lot of damage to the spiritual cause. Including to these religions themselves.

Without a stable trust in a spiritual guide, without a model of positive behaviour, how can one possibly believe in his own undiscovered potentials and in his ability to evolve fully? How can one believe that a religion benefits one's goodness and wisdom, if there's no living proof for it? Today we see mostly soldiers and managers of religions, where have all the saints gone?

I believe this is the main cause for the decrease of interest in religions in Europe, and for general Western attitude towards ordained life.

On a second thought... :ssst:

 

I remembered one person putting it to me very simply, raw, unrefined, but very clear...'You have to understand that all sh** comes from your own mind!' :blush:

 

I think I know what you mean Felix...when I started thinking about ordination, I would mention little something here and there to my family or friends to kind of à¢-Ëœprepare them', if eventually I take such a decision...they were all laughing at first, as if it were the best joke they heard in a long time, I felt as if I were back in teens making another 'I'll be a nun' joke - you know a desperate teenager looking for love...if I don't find that special someone, I'll just become a nun...then when hearing the 'joke' several times, they slowly got it and everyone started panicking...anything but a nun, it would be such a disgrace, so shameful... why? you are not ugly, you've got a good job, you will surely find someone - hahaha - And I too would sometimes have to face it...a nun :( , if only I could be a monk, it sounds a little bit better, not so desperate...Believe it or not I was once referred to as Buddha's wannabe bride (apparently Christian nuns are à¢-Ëœpopularly' referred to as God's brides - I didn't know :0022: ).

And then to defend my believes I would jump to explain I would not become THE nun, but a BUDDHIST nun - that's different... :-); and I seem to be good in convincing people...now most are ok with it...be a nun, no problem, just don't shave your head - hahaha - we share the à¢-Ëœhair' attachment, so I still can't convince them wrong... :D

But you see I am convinced the day I let go of the à¢-Ëœhair' others will accept it easily too...

 

Wouldn't it be possible it's not all so big...and outside, separate from my own little ignorant mind - corruption of traditional European religions, general attitude towards ordained life...? What is that really? And what do you do with it?

 

A nice day to everyone!

 

D.

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A friend :bow: kindly reminded me my last paragraph makes no sense (not in these words). Indeed, I mixed up two realities and made a lukewarm soup...I apologize;

Wouldn't it be possible it's not all so big...and outside, separate from my own little ignorant mind - corruption of traditional European religions, general attitude towards ordained life...? What is that really? And what do you do with it?

To put it more clearly:

1. Conventionally we come to conclusion traditional European religions are corrupted, now we all suffer consequences of this general attitude towards ordained life (this is how I understood part of Felix's post).

So now that we have identified the 'bad boy' :[ and his 'victim' :angel: ... what do you propose to do with this knowledge? Any approach or idea on how to educate and change for the better the bad boy or how to help his victim?

 

2. The little personal story I told was because it made me think it is the change in me that changes the world I perceive. I too would pass a 'penguin' dressed nun and feel pity, poor girl, she probably has some incurable disease, some other...uff a witch, I too would pass a priest and hide in case his corruption is contagious, ..., then one day I ran into a Franciscan monk and didn't hide - he wasn't scary at all, he was kind of 'cool', inspireing and then I ran into a 'Buddhist monk'... and then the world slowly started to change, people started to change, even objects- my annoyingly slow computer is really not so slow anymore :D:D ...

 

So I wander the attitude towards ordained life, just like everything else, can it come from anywhere else but my own mind? And can I change anything else but my own mind? And is there anything else but my own mind I can change if I want to change the attitude of others? Is it my computer that is now faster?

 

 

I hope I make more sense now. Apologies for lack of clarity.

Please :prayer: don't let me drown in my monologues! :(

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Guest Felix

Tashi Delek.

 

So now that we have identified the 'bad boy' :[ and his 'victim' :angel: ... what do you propose to do with this knowledge? Any approach or idea on how to educate and change for the better the bad boy or how to help his victim?
According to the icons you used, I would guess that you don't mean it so literarily. My intention was not to make a dichotomy between the saints and the sinners, I wouldn't find it realistic. I was trying to expose the decadence of some era, in which both sides took part, actively or passively. :,(

Thank you for reminding me about the simplifications in my post. I surely don't think that Christianity per se is negative, I know some very inspiring Christians too. What I regret about its tradition, is that it has lost a lot of its precious heritage, a lot of the most sincere believes were forced to leave its rows or were pushed aside. What for? So that the power of an institution could be preserved or increased.

Fighting against religions that are treated with better respect, like Buddhism, won't help them at all.

 

And can I change anything else but my own mind? And is there anything else but my own mind I can change if I want to change the attitude of others? Is it my computer that is now faster?
I agree with the correlation between changing the mind and changing the reality around us. I often wonder about this puzzle too. I think the speed of the change depends on purification and merits.

But there is something I would add: what we are experiencing in the conventional reality, is really taking place (in a conventional way), while ultimately, this perception is an illusion. I find this differentiation important: without it, we are in danger to become passive and opportune. We live in the conventional world, so we have responsibilities towards it. As well as knowing our Ultimate Potential makes us responsible for Its revelation.

I guess that this is what the paths of method and wisdom are about. :angel: They are compared to wings of a bird: one can not fly, if both wings are not equally developed.

 

Respectfully,

Felix

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Tashi Delek dear Felix,

 

I am immensely grateful for your post. It clarifies things very much and is extremely inspiring!

This differentiation you mentioned is essential, the missing link. Definitely time for me to return to purification and merits!

 

Thank you! :prostate:

 

Best wishes to everyone!

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Guest Felix

Tashi delek dear Dani,

 

all that I know I have learned from the others. Starting by admitting my mistakes to myself. If there is anything beneficial about my post, all the credit is of my Teachers, and other inspiring persons.

 

Respectfully,

Felix :bow:

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