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billytiss

Pleasant - Unpleasant

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Tashi Delek,

 

I am curious about the process one goes through when applying practice in daily life more. It seems to me that more good I do, more unpleasant situations appear on one side, yet more spiritual conditions on the other side :)

 

Is there a neccesity to understand, see that our actions, no matter how good they are, can provoke very unpleasant conditions? So to teach us, to not attach/avert, but only to take responsability of our actions and to let conditions pass.

 

Is there a need to develop a wisdom that our goodness is pecieved by others in such a way. As sometimes I see others create more negativity when I try my best to be kind, helpful.

 

Thank you very much.

M

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Yes, in fact, I find it difficult to understand your question. Can you give an example or ask again in more simple way?

 

Although I am probably not the best person to give advice anyway...

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QUESTION: I am asking of our responsability when we are helping. Do we need to keep in mind how others will be able to percieve our help?

 

example: someone wants to really help me, but instead I do not see the help and I get agitated by their help.

 

First reason for agitation: I did not ask for help, but person is constantly trying to help.

Second reason for agiation: Maybe the person does not have wisdom to help me, so instead of helping me, he or she makes me agitated.

 

QUESTION 2: What is the responsability of the person who really wants to help. Do we need to keep in consideration persons agitation?

 

SUB QUESTION: Does the bodhisattva vow oblige you to give answers to all questions, even if you dont understand the question or do not know the answer?

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Tashi Delek,

I am curious about the process one goes through when applying practice in daily life more. It seems to me that more good I do, more unpleasant situations appear on one side, yet more spiritual conditions on the other side :)...

...Is there a need to develop a wisdom that our goodness is pecieved by others in such a way. As sometimes I see others create more negativity when I try my best to be kind, helpful.

I have had experience exactly the same as you Billytiss - I want to help and on the other side my eagerness to invest effort, knowledge, time, money...whatever, to help is perceived with suspicion, distrust, irritation, causes anger...I didn't get it at all till the precious teachings on the Wheel of Sharp Weapons; just wanting to help seems not enough...this has become a main motivator for the practice, for working on my mind; I have to admit to myself soo often, I simply do not have the skillful means to be able to help or I am disturbed by the karmic obstacles created by my past actions...and that hurts my pride and I have to chew on it; what I often forget too is that not helping is sometimes indeed the most skilful help I can offer - I don't like it, it makes me feel useless :verysad:; I forget also that with a prayer or merits dedicated for other beings I can never go wrong...
SUB QUESTION: Does the bodhisattva vow oblige you to give answers to all questions, even if you dont understand the question or do not know the answer?
I think I misuse Bodhisattva vows sometimes as a nice excuse :( ; ... it is so good dealing with other people's problems, giving them advice, helping them out with their little problems, ...it gives a nice feeling I am helping, and then they are grateful too and that feels good, they like me :yes: and then I want them to like me more (who me :angel: ?), so I help more...or the sharp weapon shoots and people don't like me, so I try to help even more to make them like me (no, not me :nono:! ), but they like me even less, but I keep my good motivation and offer them more help, and then they get angry with me, but being such a good practitioner, I never give up on any being, so I persist and I offer more help... :applause:

 

but then on those days when I finally sit down and have to put up with my own mind, with no one else around whom I could help...uff...the strength of that pride, the feeling of being so good and so advanced so above those petty little problems of others...bang...straight in my face...I hope I learn one day... :blush:

 

funny when I am out there living my nice little life, I often think I have no problems, my problems are not big, nothing serious (meaning also sometimes à¢-ËœI am above the drama of little stupidities' others put up with), but if I really have no big problem, how on earth do I still find myself soo caught up in Samsara, how come I am still not enlightened :ssst: ?

 

...this would be my non understandable non advice :laugh: ; but I had to write you know, somebody pointed out I have Bodhisattva vows... the question was asked and nobody seemed to understand it, so I just had to answer...I think I understood well the quesiton, I have vows, I have to give an asnwer?! Really?

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For years I tried to help the one person in my life who was most closely and intimately connected with me, my mother. I invested time, money, effort, a great deal of emotions, patience, impatience ... in the "project". When after more than ten years there was no visible result, I finally thought about asking the right person, my teacher, how to help her, what to do. The answer I received was: "You can't help everybody. Some people don't want to be helped."

 

I learnt that lesson in a very difficult situation and it was hard to swallow. Who would not want to help one's mother? But I admit that since I learnt it, my life became much more simple and our relationship improved. And yes, sometimes I even manage to help her with some "petty unimportant" thing that means a whole world to her, although it is irrelevant to me.

 

Sometimes giving space can be the best help. But of course, until we are realised and have perfect wisdom, it is difficult to know what is truly needed.

 

...this would be my non understandable non advice :laugh: ; but I had to write you know, somebody pointed out I have Bodhisattva vows... the question was asked and nobody seemed to understand it, so I just had to answer...I think I understood well the quesiton, I have vows, I have to give an asnwer?! Really?
If somebody asks a question on the forum and it is not understandable to others, I think it is only legitimate to ask for further explanation. This has nothing to do with any vows, it's a logical consequence. Dani, if you did understand the question, why didn't you answer it earlier? There is no need to laugh at others who did not understand it.

 

The way I understand the Bodhisattva vow in question is that we should not ignore questions that somebody puts to us and if we do not know the answer, we should say that we don't know. And if the question is not understandable, we should ask kindly to have it repeated in a more understandable form.

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If question is not understandable next time please ask on forum and not other ways :( . I do not know how others will understand me, but I can try my best. I am always willing to rephrase the question.

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If question is not understandable next time please ask on forum and not other ways :( . I do not know how others will understand me, but I can try my best. I am always willing to rephrase the question.
You certainly have a point there!

 

Oh, and to add to my answer, which is only my opinion and may not be correct, I do not think we are fully responsible for the reactions of others. Of course, we must try to approach them in the right way according to the situation, but for example, if our help is refused, it is not our responsibility. It is a result of karma. What I think is our responsibility is to at least try to help, to nurture that attitude in our life.

 

Have a wonderful day!

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

Does the bodhisattva vow oblige you to give answers to all questions, even if you dont understand the question or do not know the answer?
I've never heard of such interpretation. It doesn't sound reasonable to me. I agree with Dechen that the point is to avoid ignoring the others, our laziness and lack of concern. Besides, absence of a response can hurt a person.

 

Someone wants to really help me, but instead I do not see the help and I get agitated by their help.
We can analyse our reaction and the weak point that the person pressed.

We can accept that some people love to give advice - no need to stress about it, it is their habit, we can even take it with a positive sense of humour.

And if such situations repeat, we can check what kind of information we are giving when communicating to the others: do we present things as problems; or talk to the others in a helpless way, for example how something overwhelms us and we can not control ourselves; do we change our mind very often, which again gives an impression of disorientation...? These kinds of things may trigger paternalistic reactions in the others. Sometimes just knowing each other better helps to solve this, because it opens the more joyous aspects of us to the others.

 

To all what has been said i would add that sometimes forget that we are learning how to help. It is hardly possible for us to know the true needs of the others. But still, i believe that we do need to try. Because it helps us to keep our concern on the others; and because it helps us to search for the right means. As it is a learning process, we can expect to often fail before we learn who needs what, when and how. It includes all kinds of reactions to our clumsy attempts. But without trying, we can not learn how to help. Not comfortable, but it's for the others, this makes it worth.

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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We can simply use question: “How can I help you?†People who are in need, they already feel unpleasant and sometimes they don't want to be treated like an object of someone help. If you ask him/she what I can do for you; this person will feel equal and free to express the need or problem. From my point of view it is matter of genuine relationship between two in which both side should have feeling of respect and sovereignty. Person who needs help is in very fragile, emotional state and can easily fall in feeling of misuse.

Regards,

tatjana

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To all what has been said i would add that sometimes forget that we are learning how to help.
I think sometimes we should recheck if the person really is asking for help. And sometimes we should recheck if our motivation is pity and not compassion. Not being able to cope with other peoples suffering, so we try to change it for our own good :angel: - how tricky is our mind.

 

I am actually trying to rather apply more practice, so I will aquire the wisdom neccessary to solve the hard issues. Till then maybe just being kind is enough, especially in cases when I am not asked for long elaborations :// and problem solving.

 

It is hardly possible for us to know the true needs of the others.
With this I completely agree. So much more to learn, experience, so so so much.

 

But still, i believe that we do need to try.
This part I am not so sure if it is always good, since we can take a person almost as our experiment. Maybe better to meditate more and not overindulge in the idea of helping. Maybe I am completely wrong.

 

Because it helps us to keep our concern on the others.
Maybe it helps us to feel that we are helping...hmmm...are we really helping?? or feeding the feeling that we are helping, here I think I made lots of mistakes and I still do ://

 

Because it helps us to search for the right means. As it is a learning process, we can expect to often fail before we learn who needs what, when and how.
With this I agree, yet as I have already expressed I am not sure if we can just choose a candidate and start practicing, without candidate to agree on terms of agreement

 

Thank you very much,

B.

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What we are forgetting is the motivation. Is our motivation to improve the conditions of the other being (human or non-human) or something else? If our intentions are genuine concern for the wellbeing of the other, than how can it become an experiment?

 

If our intentions are genuine, then we will try to do the best for the other, asking him or her (in case of humans) what he or she needs and take into consideration their refusal of our help.

 

I agree that we must at least try, at least that is what I feel. So many times I see a situation where help is needed but I don't do anything. In fact, that is what I would call pity: feeling sorry for somebody, but not trying to help at all. It all remains a thought process. Whereas compassion is for me a step further, leading to action, even if it is just a simple question: What can I do to help you?

 

I agree with what you say that there is a danger of "ego trip help", but I am convinced that by developing a genuine sense of compassion, along with wisdom, through spiritual practice is the right antidote for that.

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If our intentions are genuine, then we will try to do the best for the other, asking him or her (in case of humans) what he or she needs and take into consideration their refusal of our help.
I agree. Helping without even asking can be tricky.

 

I agree that we must at least try, at least that is what I feel.
I agree

 

So many times I see a situation where help is needed but I don't do anything. In fact, that is what I would call pity: feeling sorry for somebody, but not trying to help at all.
istn't it pitty when we can not experience other persons suffering, so we want to stop our suffering - that is why we help.

 

It all remains a thought process. Whereas compassion is for me a step further, leading to action
I was also dreaming, dreaming and dreaming how I will help, I constructed a grand model of helping, but when I passed a wounded cat, I did not know what I can do. Once I got a advice: you will never be able to reach this expectation about yourself, all you can do is maximum in the moment...when a being needs or asks for help.

 

I agree with what you say that there is a danger of "ego trip help", but I am convinced that by developing a genuine sense of compassion, along with wisdom, through spiritual practice is the right antidote for that.
I agree :)

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istn't it pitty when we can not experience other persons suffering, so we want to stop our suffering - that is why we help.
Yes, but this is not help, isn't it? Well, most of the time this pity manifests in the form of complaining about injustices, saying how somebody should do something, how the government or whoever is indifferent, how this is unbearable. I think that the fact that we can't stand the suffering of others can sometimes be a good motivator so that we go into action. But again, the motivation should be helping others not helping ourselves or removing our own suffering. I guess the border line between these two is very unclear and sometimes the initial "I can't stand this, somebody should do something" can transform into "what can I do to help you".

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek,

 

But again, the motivation should be helping others not helping ourselves or removing our own suffering. I guess the border line between these two is very unclear and sometimes the initial "I can't stand this, somebody should do something" can transform into "what can I do to help you".
I couldn't agree more. This is the reason why I believe that it is worth to try. When truly trying to understand the needs, one is forced to learn, which automatically means giving up one's comfort, ideas, position... This makes a shift from oneself (including the ego-trick of helping and the ego-trick of pasivity) to a concern for another person. :))

 

I use two tests of motivation. First, what happens when the situation demands effort? If I wish to stop, I reexamine my motivation and I analyze the situation. If I persevere, it is for the others. Another test is the time when obstacles appear - sooner or later they always do. Where do I see the cause - in myself or in another being, the circumstances...? If in myself, the motivation is good enough, if anywhere else, it is not.

Good enough motivation is not yet wisdom, unfortunately, but it can start, maintain and complete the process of (un)learning. ;)

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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I couldn't agree more. This is the reason why I believe that it is worth to try. When truly trying to understand the needs, one is forced to learn, which automatically means giving up one's comfort, ideas, position...
With this I agree, but other person should agree on that and our actions should be performed with tactfulness - using actions, methods that do not make the person we are helpnig, furious.

 

I think one check that we need to do is also, if helping/perservering for others is really for others.

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Guest Ani.Chödrön
I think one check that we need to do is also, if helping/perservering for others is really for others.
This is just what i wanted to add. :-) Nevertheless, also just checking could be done in a wrong way or misunderstood or misinterpreted from any other reason. Without wisdom we are making mistakes. But this is not just bad - it is a learning process. ;)

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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And if such situations repeat, we can check what kind of information we are giving when communicating to the others: do we present things as problems; or talk to the others in a helpless way, for example how something overwhelms us and we can not control ourselves; do we change our mind very often, which again gives an impression of disorientation...? These kinds of things may trigger paternalistic reactions in the others. Sometimes just knowing each other better helps to solve this, because it opens the more joyous aspects of us to the others.
I think we so often help with intelect, with all different ideas that once previously helped us, helped others, but so often we forget that true love and compassion is one of the greatest cures one can give to a friend with very disturbed mind. It is very hard for a person, who did not know love, to understand that love can be a cure, so they search for mental variations, different techniques that appease the mind. But all this techniques without having minimum love and compassion for oneself last a day or two, sometimes longer.

 

When we see a wounded cat crying on the street we offer love, affection, food and shelter, when we see a crying person, we offer advice :). Do just cats deserve affection, solely listening and care? 8/

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Guest Ani.Chödrön

Tashi Delek!

 

I think we so often help with intelect, with all different ideas that once previously helped us, helped others, but so often we forget that true love and compassion is one of the greatest cures one can give to a friend with very disturbed mind.
I couldn't agree more, dear Billytiss. I'm always surprised how just some soft openness for the needs of the others can make miracles, without any intellectual elaboration. :))

I wrote the quoted part because recurring experiences were mentioned. I see a common point of various vicious circles in our blindness about the connection between what we are doing the unwanted results that we are experiencing. I believe that vicious circles need both - compassionate support and awareness.

 

You were asking about being rejected when offering help. Sometimes we can not change the situation. If a person has put you in a negative role and preserves it, no matter what you do, how much you care about the person, how many times, in how many ways you try to approach her, you do not meet a result. Unless the person gives up seeing you in that role.

It's a perfect practice, by the way. ;) If you serve the person as a projection screen, maybe some of her tensions will be reduced, maybe they will not be directed to the ones who can not endure them, maybe the person will not be so much burdened by the negative projections about herself... And it's even not so hard to love the person who acts this way, if you don't take it personally. We are here for the others anyway. :bow:

 

All the very best,

chödrön

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Good evening,

 

We shall keep in mind that sometime people might not need help, even if we do think they do. This can be because we interpret some signs, words, questions, as expression of despair or suffering, when they are not. And on our side, we can have so much the wish to help that we “create the occasion”...

 

Also, the one who think he can help shall not do it with the mind of being superior, or to know more. We help others, as brothers and sisters. One day we might know how to deal better with a specific situation, the next day it can be the other who will help us.

 

Some other times, some people would need help, but do not accept it. This can belong to their responsibility. We can't force things. We can state clearly that we are ready to help, that is all. People in need take our hand or not. Their choice. And if they don't take it today, may be tomorrow, may be next year, next life... It remains their choice. We have to remain open minded, and not turn our back to people who do not accept our hand.

 

It is indeed sometime “hard” to watch at some situation which would require help, but either we don't know how to, either we can't at all. It is a lesson to learn also about our disturbed emotions and attachments. Because what is painful is not always what we watch, but our own feelings, our incapacity to do something to help, our incapacity to deal with the suffering we witness.

 

At last, we can also say that help is not always in a specific, “technical” way. A hand, a hug, a smile can be very helpful, can give hope and revive a bad mood. Sometime people just need to know there is someone who can help them, care for them.

 

All the very best, Lama Shenphen

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