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billytiss

Deceiving Speech

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I used to speak a lot a manner that would accomplish I goal, yet would often use a longer approach to express what I wanted.

 

1. Example

if I would not completely agree with ingredients of the dish, I would not say: I do not want to eat this dish because this ingredient I do not approve. Instead, I would eat it and later explain that certain ingredients I do not approve, like, that they are not good for health.

 

My dilemma:

Is is OK to speak about present, food, things that were already done, served in such a way?

When we accept the gift, is it not advisable to critique the present?

 

2. Example

I am broke. And instead of saying to my mom.

Mom I am broke, is it possible for you to lend me some money?

I would use this technique:

My conditions of life are so bad, I do not know how I will go through the month. I am carefully choosing things in the store, always looking at the price...it is hard...

 

My dilemma:

In the second option I think I am manipulating with her. Trying to get from her money in such a way that I am presenting myself as poor, no money...so after she feels like she has to help, because I am so poor and that she feels bad if she does not help.

 

Question:

Is this OK? ://

Should we speak more directly and truthfully? :angel:

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Good morning to all.

 

Regarding the second example, if I compare it with my experiences, then what I don´t like is, when people who are close to me, come and ask for help too late. Each event has got the start, causes and several stages, through which develops. If I am notified too late when a little trouble is expanded to a big problem, then I feel sometimes like a firefighter who has to put out a huge fire with one vessel of the water.

 

As about the first example, if I decide to accept the gift, then I accept it with a full heart. And if so, I don`t make any comments about the gift neither at the time of receiving it nor later.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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Dear billytiss,

 

Is it OK to speak about present, food, things that were already done, served in such a way?

I think that if we are given presents it's nice to show people that we are happy for the act itself, for their kind motive, but if I am given a bottle of alchohol, I think I let people know that I don't drink it, that guests who do we'll be happy that i have somthing to offer to them ;)

 

Should we speak more directly and truthfully? :angel:

I think so. At leats with people who are as close to us as our mothers. If they are not, maybe others are closer, so we go to them to be lend the money from. Of course there are too situations which need more tact, i think, maybe at our jobs, where consequences of our question affect also other people or situations. My opinion....

...with my best regards :-)

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Tashi Delek!

 

I think it mostly depends on the motivation. You didn't say why you do this or that, so it is hard to say, especially not knowing the people who are involved, the circumstances ...

But of course, the motivation must be examined truthfully - no use to declare that the motivation is positive, if in reality it is simple fear to tell things openly or the wish to avoid confrontation. :))

 

In the case if someone puts a lot of effort and joy to bring us a present, for example, I don't see any use in telling them directly that we don't like it, even if this is the truth. I think that would often hurt unnecessarily. But we can do it the other way around - we can start to like the present, instead, so no untruth is said. ;) Because, in fact, "liking" and "not liking" are flexible categories ...

 

All the best.

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Tashi delek,

When we accept the gift, is it not advisable to critique the present?
I think that any gift should be accepted with kind words of appreciation. Somebody took the time and the energy to buy, do or prepare something for us, they are being generous with us. :) Even if we don't particularly like or need the gift very much, I beleive we should be glad and rejoice in their goodness.

If we are presented with a gift that is unethical in some way, I guess we can even politely refuse it and explain our concern. If the gift isn't presented with a very pure motivation (if it is given with selfish motives), we are in a different position, and I would think other approaches can be applied.

Should we speak more directly and truthfully?
I think we should try, yes.

 

Arya Shantideva: "In a soft and gentle voice one should speak sincere, coherent words that have clear meaning and are agreeable, pleasant to the ear, and rooted in compassion."

 

I hope this helps :)

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Thank you so much for sharing your view points with me. They are very helpful and are appeasing also the agitation when I experience this things with others (doing the same thing to me). I am beginning to realize that the Wheel of sharp weapons is working in this case :)) and I am trying to really clarify this matter, so I do not create more negative karma with such actions.

 

Does anyone have a view point about the second matter:

When we try to present ourselves as poor in order to get what we want.

 

It seems to me there is a fear of not receiving what we want, need - so we make all sorts of techniques to get this.

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Good morning to all.

 

I would say that when a person presents himself as poor, he is poor. And to think "oh, I am not poor, but I will just present myself as poor in order to get something" it is deceitful. I believe, it is always about lack in one way or an other when one presents himself as poor. Because, many wishes and needs are emotional, social or psychological and not necessary (also) functional. Just to remind that if a person is striving to get or buy a car for example, getting a car doesn´t represent to him necessary the contentment of a functional need, but first of all the contentment of some emotional need, which is contented in a so to say "symbolical" way. We could find many such cases, as for example people who eat not because they would be hungry, but because they comfort themselves with food, etc. So much about presentations.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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What do you think about this.

 

Someone is poor, but is trying to present the poorness to such extent that it almost tries to make others feel like they are not good if they do not help. To encourage guilt feeling and pitty.

 

I think that generosity is free will and we practice to our maximum. I have found out that being generous by force does not bring any good result. First motivation is wrong, second we do not feel Ok at being generous, which should be the oposite. By going to far with exposing the poorness, we do create negative karma. Do you agree?

 

I wonder what are the results :// . Maybe more poorness, more attachment to being poor definitely strenghtens that aspect of a person. Hmmmm...

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Guest Felix

Tashi Delek.

 

Thank you, Billytiss, for another interesting post, and to the others for another set of inspiring answers. :bow:

 

When encountering the others, we are confronting also their limitations. It can be poverty, due to their past karma. Objective or subjective poverty. It can be manipulation. But not every feeling of guilt that we get means that the person is manipulating us. Maybe one doesn't expects anything, maybe one is just expressing the facts, used to them, knowing how to deal with them. When encountering the others, we are confronting also our own limitations. Limitations in perception and limitations in ability to offer help. Often we can not do much about the limitations of the others, but we can surely work on our own ones.

 

About forcing oneself to any virtue: it's a matter of balance between exertion and comfort, isn't it? We have to get used to use the virtues. They look easy when reading about them, but in practice... :0022::D

 

I love the practice of generosity from many reasons. First, it undermines the attachments of all kind. Second, it makes the others happy, and rejoicing is beneficial and infectious. Third, it is connected to the first bhumi. I don't know exactly what it means, but I somehow believe that when we give up all the attachments to the mundane life, our ego will become more visible and thus easier to work on, and when husking our ego, we will discover Bodhicitta and Emptiness and other wonders of the Bodhisattva life. :levitation: It all starts with generosity - exchanging the concern for our own welfare with the concern for the welfare of others, if my speculation is right. ;)

 

I wish you swift accomplishment of all the Paramitas.

 

Respectfully,

Felix

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Third, it is connected to the first bhumi. I don't know exactly what it means, but I somehow believe that when we give up all the attachments to the mundane life, our ego will become more visible and thus easier to work on, and when husking our ego, we will discover Bodhicitta and Emptiness and other wonders of the Bodhisattva life.

wow 8/ thank you so much for this information. Yes, I agree. It is hard to go over ones limites and it can be even harder when aversion appears due to peception of manipulation. That is the difficult part, yet I am trying my best to clarify the line between rightful actions and purification of my own negative karma. It seems to me if I see others negative acts as purification of my own negative karma, it enables me to practice with more patience and effort.

 

To see it as purification I need to understand better true meaning of generosity.

 

I do not really know if this is really right approach. A definitely feel more at ease, when I know how would be a proper act of generosity - so I do not feel I am doing something wrong. To know what would be a better motivation/act, yet to have compassion towards others at the same time.

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Good morning to all.

What do you think about this. Someone is poor, but is trying to present the poorness to such extent that it almost tries to make others feel like they are not good if they do not help. To encourage guilt feeling and pitty.
Here, I think it is a danger to mix up the cause and the effect. If one thinks "because I need something I will ask someone for help", then ones mind is directed into possibilities (at the beginning may be into just one) to solve the discrepancy between the existing and wishing situation, i. e. it is directed into how to achieve the wishing situation. Yet, in the case described, there is a danger to reverse and direct the mind into thinking "Because someone is not helping me I am in need" and basically nothing wrong with this kind of thinking, except that it is focused mainly onto the existing situation rather onto the wishing situation and in this manner can be an obstacle in being effective in achieving the wishing situation.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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