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draftsman

Abortion For Free Or Not?

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Hello,

 

Slovene minister for labour, family and social affairs proposed that women themselves pay for the abortion. This proposal is one of the measures predicted in the state strategy to increase natality :vieuxsmiley: . Right now, abortion procedure is payed for by the state. Average procedure costs about 112.000 Slovene tolars (467,37 euro). What do You think about this proposal?

 

It happened in Slovenia, but the theme is universal - hence I post it on the English forum ;) .

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

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I think it is a good idea. I mean, why would the state cover for something that does not come under its direct responsability?

 

I think that having women pay for their abortion can only make them more responsible in their sexual behavior. Not that women are irresponsible, but they'll have another argument for safer sex with their partners.

 

And maybe some "accidents" will stop being considered like so in the end, which is a good thing, as I am not in favor of abortion.

 

In the end, let us all be a bit more responsible, it can't hurt!

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Hello,

I think it is a good idea. I mean, why would the state cover for something that does not come under its direct responsability?
Legally, Slovene situation is a bit special - right to abortion is (to simplify a bit) a consitutional right, which is not common in other states. So the Slovene state has obligation to provide conditions for the right to be exercised. And many women who decide for the abortion are poor.

 

I think that having women pay for their abortion can only make them more responsible in their sexual behavior. Not that women are irresponsible, but they'll have another argument for safer sex with their partners.
This probably depends on each country - I heard that in Slovenia most of the women having abortions are the ones already having 2 children and not being able to (financially) afford the third one. On the other hand there is e.g. a case of a woman, who had 34 abortions - all payed for by the state. This probably doesn't make sense.

 

In the end, let us all be a bit more responsible, it can't hurt!
I agree. Maybe there are also other means to reach that. Paying for abortion might create "a black market" of abortions, which might have negative effects on the health of women.

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

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Good evening,

 

Difficult subject, because often very emotional... It requires replacing the act of abortion in contexts in which it is done, and the reasons which propelled a woman to accept this.

 

Whatever reasons, the act of abortion is resulting in the death of a sentient being. And this because, for a being to grow, to be, you need three elements: father cell, mother cell, and consciousness. If there is a consciousness, there is life.

 

It is important also to replace this debate in the framework of our understanding and believe in the law of causality (Karma); and keep a clear consistency about it, rather than to think or react emotionally.

 

I can see two main reasons for abortion:

1. to interrupt an unwished pregnancy (bad or lack of birth control);

2. for medical reasons which would place the mother (or the child) in serious danger threatening the life.

 

In the first case, it is not humanly or spiritually acceptable; by the mistake or lack of care of the man or woman, a sentient being will be killed, a life will be terminated voluntarily.

I have personally met some women who have had several abortions (not to mention the 34 that Draftman is mentioning); almost each time the method of birth control failed, by lack of attention. This is not acceptable.

And we can wonder if the State has to pay for the murder of a life, caused by lack of conscientiousness...? The cost of it could, may be, develop a certain awareness. An awareness which they would benefit themselves, because, abortion doesn't have legal consequences, yet has undeniably karmic ones :(

If someone has taken the vow of not killing, and engage in abortion (deciding, advising, or conducting), the vow is broken.

 

If the woman can't or don't want to take care of the child (unwanted, rape, feeling of inability to afford it financially, etc...), then s/he can be given to adoption, so many couples are waiting for such opportunity. From a Buddhist point of view, this appears as a wonderful way to practice generosity.

 

In the case 2 are placed clear medical situations which shows that if the growth of the embryo is not stopped, the mother could/would pay of a her life (ex.: extra-uterine pregnancy). It is a terrible solution, but it is done to save.

 

A human life is so precious! Wanted or not, a life is the result of causes which have been created, difficult to accumulate. It has to be preserved. Immediately the consciousness is aware of its state of existence, and very quickly, the little being will feel, through developing sensorial connections. An abortion is a very brutal action, dismembering the fetus, chopping it's little body in pieces. Do we think of it when this happen?

 

Abortion is often a more or less easy way to escape responsibility. In few minutes, the consequence of what we have done disappears; leaving a mild pain eventually, which will soon end. But the karma remains, and -non purified- will give its result, in this life of next.

 

I'm aware that the topic is not easy, and positions can't be “sharp and cold”. Aborting is also often a suffering, the result of fear, misunderstanding, and confusion. The decision is taken quickly, trying to put an end to a growing fear of the consequences of having to carry a child.

Before to take such decision, more though should surely be given to the situation, more consideration about life, consequences, responsibility, and about the possible alternatives to this killing.

 

This said, when abortion has taken place, it doesn't make sense either to develop guilt. One can surely regret it, vow to do not repeat it, and engage into spiritual practices in order to counteract the karmic consequences of what was done; that is the way. To fall into guilt and depression wouldn't be a solution at all.

 

All the very best, Lama Shenphen Rinpoche

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Tashi Delek!

 

I would like to add just a few practical remarks.

Having children in our country is a luxury, as we all know. The child has to go to kindergarten (the fees are horrible), school (better not mention what it costs), it needs clothes, food and a place to stay ... So if the state is interested in people having more children, they can kindly begin by making the raising of children affordable to all citizens - I am sure many people will be happy to go along. :))

 

On the other hand, the state can also make contraception easily accessible and affordable to all citizens - I know condoms are on sale in many places, but for someone who can't afford the price ...

 

So, beside the increased emphasis on responsibility, I think these two little corrections of the present situation could also help to prevent quite some abortions ...

 

And one small remark - when speaking about abortion, I am afraid we could easily fall into speaking about "women having abortions", while the men who obviously were also involved in the production of the embrio aren't mentioned in the context.

 

All the best

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Yes, if contraception would be more affordable and accessible, it would surely help. As well as social help for families.

while the men who obviously were also involved in the production of the embrio aren't mentioned in the context.
??? . Lama Shenphen Rinpoche wrote:
by the mistake or lack of care of the man or woman

 

But it is true that what matters a lot is the decision to do it. And (in our countries at least), that final decision is done by the woman on which abortion will be performed, no?

 

Thank you.

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Hello,

But it is true that what matters a lot is the decision to do it. And (in our countries at least), that final decision is done by the woman on which abortion will be performed, no?

Yes, in Slovenia (and probably in the West in general) the pregnant woman is the one, who legally takes the decision. If she is injudicious, her parents or guardian takes the decision. Similarly if she is a minor, unless she became fully legally competent before (e.g. if she got married as a minor). So, hypothetically a woman can be in favour of the abortion and a man against it, and there is nothing a man can do to stop it. Although, this might not happen very often in real life.

 

Maybe the legal regulation is such because usually a woman decides for the abortion, once the father has already ran away, or because women are in our society "put in the position to take care for the baby" (while men can get away without showing much care) or because more radical forms of feminism (which fought for the right to the abortion) saw abortion as "a right of a woman to make decisions about her own body". The latter standpoint is inaccurate, given the fact that it takes a woman and a man to conceive a child and that abortion is firstly a decision about the life of a baby.

 

I heard that in one country the state proposed a regulation according to which, the father would have to agree in order for abortion to take place, but most of the women opposed the solution (perhaps because some of the men would say no to abortion and then after the birth they wouldn't take care of a child).

 

Best regards,

Draftsman

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Good morning.

 

I think the question about the abortion is the question of the heart and not of the money. Above all, what the women and men, finding in such situations need is a helping and guiding hand. Someone who is able to apeace them through deepen talk and enable to calm the disturbing emotions and to ensure the right decision will be taken. The decision of the heart.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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If I leave out all the themes that you all already covered and are relevant.. Usually when the abortions have to be payed, there is an increase of illegal abortions and self inflicted abortions that have higher rate of mortality of women becouse of improper procedures.

 

best regards

prema

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Usually when the abortions have to be payed, there is an increase of illegal abortions and self inflicted abortions that have higher rate of mortality of women becouse of improper procedures.
Yep, BIG problem! Just as big as the "black market" of abortion previously mentioned by Draftsman. May not be such a good idea to have it paid for by women after all...

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Amnesty International passed a resolution last year, that it will uphold abortion as a woman's right. As you can imagine, there was an unending debate on such a delicate subject and it has encountered some strong opposition from countries with a traditionally strong catholic church (Spain, Ireland, Poland, USA). The decision developed through different accounts from all around the world, which may be difficult to understand for a Westerner.

In wartime rape is often used as a weapon. Raped women go through a most dramatic period in their lives and want to get rid of the child either before or after giving birth. In Argentina, where abortion is a crime, the mortality rate of women has its peak between the ages of 15-25 and than it falls. The main reason is that pregnant women resort to black market abortion facilities, which more often than not lead to complications and potentially death of the mother.

To make it clear: upholding the right to abortion and promoting abortion are two different things!

Jigme

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it will uphold abortion as a woman's right.
Do we sometime ask ourselves where is the right of the unborn child??

 

upholding the right to abortion and promoting abortion are two different things!
I get this. And, as Rinpoche, we can't just "reject" abortion, as it can also save life in some case. The important point is: in which case it is to save, and in which it is to comply to selfish reasons?

If we accept the idea of abortion being "ok", then, like in China, why not to allow abortion also up to the 8th or 9th months? What difference can we make as regarding Life?

 

Thank you.

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Tashi Delek dear all,

 

I am a woman who not long ago was still a girl and who only recently encountered Buddhism. Growing up as an atheist in catholic surroundings; I can only say I was lucky I did not get pregnant before becoming a Buddhist, because I would had aborted for sure; with innocent little face - having not finished any school, no job, no house, no partner with adequate capacities to play the role of a father,... my official position was it would be selfish to bring another being to the world to have to put up with all the misery of the world, because of me; I was determined to have children, the day I can provide a safe and stable environment, when I have something to offer to a child, specially in terms of time, happiness, ...bla bla bla

 

It was selfish in reality, of course - I did not want to live like that myself, with no education, no house, no job, alone...and a child on the top of it (even if given up for adoption)... but you see I did not know, nobody told me it was a being; I accepted it for granted (it suited me of course) the explanation that up to some weeks the child is not yet a being, just some dot, a little ball somewhere in women's stomach and it is ok to take it out;

 

Now about the law... I am against the law (on many accounts, not just the abortion); I believe public debate that is and could take place is extremely important and should be used to educate people to be able to make responsible choices on their own...I do not want others to make my decisions uninvited, I want to have a choice; to make an intelligible choice, I have to learn the baby has a consciousness, is a being from the moment of conception, then I can choose - I do not need an oppressive organ to tell me what I must or must not do, because if I only do what I must because the law-makers say so, then I bring the unwanted baby to the parliament and shiny heads can take care of the consequences of their decisions, because the decision was not my own...I know as a mother I would not take my baby there, but I could very well end up blaming à¢-Ëœthem' for the rest of my life,...Of course blaming them compared to killing, better to blame...

 

But it can easily be compared to drugs for ex. Just because they are illegal, it does not stop the people to kill themselves with them. On the other hand, meat (I am sorry for my slightly bizarre flow of thoughts) is totally legal, the state would even encourage you to eat it, because it's good for national economy, farmers are already in crisis...yet, there are more and more vegetarians, vegans, raw eaters and all sorts of things out there...why? Many are convinced meat is no good for their health, others learned animals are beings also,...

 

Is there nothing we can do to help other beings understand it is bad for themselves and the baby is a being not a play ball; it is not really about the baby, is it? It created the causes to find itself in that womb, but the woman aborting it is the one creating the karma that she will have to experience in the future...so focusing on this woman to me, makes sense.

 

I have to tell another story...sorry... I was 18 when I found myself on the à¢-Ëœstreet' - so I went to the centre for social work to ask for help - I needed a place to stay - I was just about to finish secondary school. First question of the social worker was do you take drugs - no - are you alcoholic - I drink alcohol, but a beer on Friday night, if I can afford it - were you physically abused or attacked - no - do you think of suicide - no - do you have problems in school, will you flunk the grade - no, I am a straight A student...after a short silence - he told me there is nothing he can do for me in that case, but I should take some leaflets with me just in case (there was a brochure on HIV/AIDS, dance workshop add, SOS phone for rape victims, and a couple of more like this); and I walked out.

 

Maybe places like this, where people come when they find themselves in trouble, would be a good place to start working on the abortion issue, maybe also tackling the roots ofthe problem - at the age of 18, I was not yet sexually active at all, boys and girls nowadays start at 11, 12 - why? I was a total child physically and psychologically at that age, today they are not, they do not look, they do not talk nor walk like children no more, why?

Maybe we could adopt a Law that says children must remain children until they can make responsible decisions for themselves?

 

This is not a criticism of social workers, please, nor of anyone else, nor is abortion solely confined to à¢-Ëœchild' mothers...just some starting points that can be discussed...

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Tashi delek dear all,

 

this subject is to me very sensitive too. Because it includes so many issues which are complex by themsleves. For me too this should start to be regulated with the question "why to talk about it, why to do somehting about it, on the national level....?" Just because we are meeting the fact that there are not so many children born into the world as they were before....to participate in it...the way the state would need it? Or because we in fact do care for the life. Of not yet born babies and mothers and all that take part in the decision taken. I am afraid the letter is not what we are used to from the side of those who shape the regulations, law. In fact, I fear too, the law would imply too much rigidity, for we in fact are not taught to think with our own heads, but are on the contrary well trained to follow. What? One statement that would define how to treat the case?

I would rather prefer to see many many diferent programs started for children as well as teachers and educators, which would slowly start bringing awarness about everything that touches this issue. Children do care about it, they ask questions, but do we hear it? If institutions that they spend most time in (schools and families) would incorporate these subjects in their scedules, it would mean that they can openely take time to expore them, not see them as something that "just happens". But this would need the world of the grown ups to change a little too...how can this be done?

All the very best,

pamo

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Tashi Delek!

 

I agree with what has already been said about the abortion and indeed, it is a very sensitive matter. I particularly agree with what Dani has written from a personal perspective.

 

What I would like to add that this proposal is part of a larger context of actually forcing Slovenes to have more children. Our right-wing government thinks that it is a duty of every citizen to have at least two children. I was even told that to my face a couple of years ago when I taught English to the members of the currently ruling party.

 

What worries me is the shortsightedness of this approach. They do not search for reasons, they do not start at the beginning but at the end, dealing with consequences rather than causes. This way, they might only make the situation worse and in the case of the abortion trigger the emergence of black market abortionists and consequently many tragic deaths.

 

Many people do not have children because of the poor living standard. There are others like me whose living standard is not that bad, but it is not secure enough and we spend most of our time working to pay our bills and there is no time left for the upbringing of the child. In our country there is no possibility for the mother to stay at home and take care of the family and the father earning enough money for the family to live decently. If that was the case I might consider having children, because I do not want state institutions to bring up my child, instilling dubious or no values in him or her. I do not want to be a stressed out mother yelling and shouting at children to be quiet because I had a rough day at work.

 

If the government wants people to have more children, it should provide the right living conditions for them. If it continues in the present direction, it might increase the birth rate, but also the number of disfunctional families and youngsters in the streets.

 

Somebody also mentioned that mothers should give their children up for adoption instead of going for abortion. I agree, but in practice, there are actually no adoptions of Slovene children taking place in Slovenia. Instead the state has established a system of foster homes that operate in return for payment from the social services. Although many of these foster parents work really hard, this is not a suitable solution for me. A child needs a proper home, he or she needs a mother and a father, whether biological or adoptive.

 

Paradoxically, there are many childless couples who want to adopt children but they cannot do it in Slovenia. So they adopt children from abroad. Of course, any child regardless of his or her nationality needs a proper home. But I'm asking myself what the government tries to achieve with this strategy? Why it pretends that there are no children in need of a better home in Slovenia? Why so many children stay with unfit parents or get stuck in the foster home system when they could get a better home? One more thing, there are no operating orphanages in Slovenia. There was an attempt to establish one but the official social system prevented it.

 

There is one more thing to consider concerning this. There are many immigrants coming to Slovenia, among them families with many children and educated individuals who have escaped political prosecution in their countries. Why the state does not make it possible for them to live a decent life in Slovenia, get a job, settle down? Must all children born in Slovenia really be Slovenes genetically speaking? Why is it my duty to give birth to two children when there are many others in need of help and citizenship?

 

The policy of our government is really short-sighted.

 

All the best,

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Everything below is my opinion :bow: :

 

Eventhough this topic refers to the abortion, I have one question. Doesn't the government always have weird "solutions" to the so called problems? What makes me nervous is the fact that this is still a debate and not an action. We have so many problems in Slovenia on which we have (can't say it otherwise) unrealistic/unhumane sollutions (like the minorities being pushed arround as a pile of poo). In my oppinion we should start working with the problems. Instead of a problems being thrown at us we should here from them on TV, big posters in the city, radio etc.

 

Most of the things we hear in our society are very contraversial to the morality of one's actions. Examples like the

- Poultury Ptuj (I will never forget her breasts) - do they even know what they promote? Loss of many more lives,

- or maybe abortion - it's not biologicly allive, has no heart beat etc.. so it's ok to kill it - NO I don't think so! This debate should take more care whether the being is alive or not (In my opinion it is allive),

- or maybe buying stuff you absolutely do not need (like the Gorenje big screen TV so you can watch more stuff that makes you less focus, less present, less human...)

 

We are developed society, we have (even the porer) - the possibility to live a spiritual life, to have everything we need (a plasma screen most of the population Does't need ;) ) and to create as much positive karma as possible. So also as a result of developed society we could cut down the working hours of men and women, have more employees, and have more equal money receievment, then we could live better - and we could really focus on the part of children being born.

 

That I don't go away too far - In my opinion the thing that we should have more is education. Not the education we have in school: "Not again!! That old ..... will bug us again with the sexuality, pregnany etc.!" - rather than that we should promote more on media the things people should know and that all things have some sort of backfire (a action has an reaction). As for the now idea of paying the abortion - the sweetest fruit is the forbidden one. There will be more black market and deaths as said before since the place, the doctor and everything else will be made uncontrolled... which I think is said since we could work things out in the first place by talking or any other civil way.

 

Best regards,

Namgyel

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Good morning.

 

To be a mother it means to go before the child and try to make a trail on the path for him. To go before him and protect him even with own body if it is necessary. The path is as it is, with love and compassion everything can be surpassed, money problems, unslept nights, adolescence troubles, ingratitudes, illnesses, and even death. This is my belief.

 

Best regards,

Simona

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